The Tomb of Myth

[gizmo33]

Originally Posted by Jack7

Because looting gold from giant rats in the city sewer [and everybody's gotta eat] and saving the kingdom by searching for the Grail are all just stuff you do because it gets ya the tavern Elf chick and a +3 bastard sword to boot. It's all equal as long as you go up in level, right. One achievement is as good as the next. C'est la vie.)

You're saying that like it's a bad thing. AFAICT your particular cultural perspective does not value survival, sex, or excellence in warfare (you obviously don't worship a goddess of sex or warfare, but your PCs might). That's cool - but if you wanted to define "heroic" in more direct terms (other than assuming that comments about "elf chick" would somehow tell us what you must think we already know) I think you'd have a tough time coming up with something universal and appropriate to all genres of fantasy (arguable if that would even be a goal).

Plus what mechanical impact *would* you suggest that moral actions (what you mean by 'heroic' AFAICT) have on the game? If you start handing out bonuses for "heroic" deeds then it turns into the situation that you criticise. In fact, I'm with some of the other folks (AFAICT) in thinking that some specifics relevant to, say, a section of the PHB might help in seeing how you would turn your criticisms into something more actionable.

I'm sympathetic with some flavor of what you're saying. The newer rulebooks do seem heavy on the development of mechanics and light on the development of setting. But from what I've seen so far, most setting information is pretty superficial, and at best a rehash of older material. Ultimately I'd rather them just concentrate on mechanics. This leaves the context, morality, etc. up to the DMs, I don't think that stuff is appropriately done in the rules but my mind could be changed if you would be more specific.

[Jack7]

Plus what mechanical impact *would* you suggest that moral actions (what you mean by 'heroic' AFAICT) have on the game? If you start handing out bonuses for "heroic" deeds then it turns into the situation that you criticise. In fact, I'm with some of the other folks (AFAICT) in thinking that some specifics relevant to, say, a section of the PHB might help in seeing how you would turn your criticisms into something more actionable.

I'm sympathetic with some flavor of what you're saying. The newer rulebooks do seem heavy on the development of mechanics and light on the development of setting. But from what I've seen so far, most setting information is pretty superficial, and at best a rehash of older material. Ultimately I'd rather them just concentrate on mechanics. This leaves the context, morality, etc. up to the DMs, I don't think that stuff is appropriately done in the rules but my mind could be changed if you would be more specific.

Gizmo, I nearly forgot to answer you after going on assignment and forgetting about this thread. Til I checked my blog and then I remembered you had commented right before I left. Work and other obligations often tie me up and make me slow or forgetful to respond. Didn't mean to ignore ya.

Let me just say that you raised some very valid points. I working on a contest design (The Great Conjunction (RPG DESIGN CONTEST)) right now to address some of these issues, but it won't necessarily be easy to accomplish.

Because of behavioral intangibles.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. Suppose a Paladin fights a rearguard action, which nearly, or does, cost the character his life, so that his companions can escape. Now the player himself may consider that action "part of my job," not above and beyond the call of duty. (The whole point of heroism after all is not to run around saying, "Look at me, I'm a hero - arrogance and true heroism are to a large measure antithetical. You want to encourage not heroism as a function of class, level, race, progression, power, or entitlement, but heroism in action and behavior.) Other party members, having benefited from his bravery might say, "that's definitely heroic."

The DM might or might not agree with either claim.

So you need a mechanism of some kind if you intend to make heroism in behavior (versus level, station, title, etc.) an important or valid aspect of game interaction. Then again it has to be kind of loose around the edges to a certain respect because the idea of heroism, like myth, or even magic, (and to me many of these subjects are directly inter-related) is to a degree at least open to interpretation.

You can say the heroism and pretty much everybody has a general idea in their mind of what that means and implies. Specific instances however can sometimes be debatable. But I'm working on it as part of the larger project I mentioned above and if you have any interest at looking at what I develop then you're more than welcome. Just let me know. Hopefully I'll have a book put together somewhere between the end of February to mid-March. I'll make it available to anyone who wants to play-test or review it.

[Aus_Snow]

Apropos of. . . hm, dunno . . . I've used parts of the Pendragon RPG, 4th edition (which I recommend having a look at anyway, by the way) kinda grafted on to the D&D 3e / d20 system, to good effect.

Ideals and Passions, in particular. Anyhow, thought it was worth mentioning, and this thread seemed like vaguely the right kinda place.

[Jack7]

I've used parts of the Pendragon RPG, 4th edition (which I recommend having a look at anyway, by the way) kinda grafted on to the D&D 3e / d20 system, to good effect.

Ideals and Passions, in particular.

I've never played or even seen it Aus. But thanks for the info. I'll look it up. Ars Magica gave me some good ideas about redoing magic, though I didn't follow the same road. Maybe this will help about heroism.

[Aus_Snow]

Well, since you're interested, I'll provide a bit more info from memory, in case it proves useful.

The Ideals are thirteen pairs of opposing Traits. Hm, actually, 'Traits' is more the term I should have used. Anyway, they can be used in checks or tests, and can increase or decrease (usually, if one half of a pair goes up, the other will go down), depending on what happens in game.

Passions can be a lot of things, apart from the usual ones in the Arthurian setting (Loyalty to one's lord, Honour, Hospitality and so on), and if they are rated particularly high, they continually add to a character's Glory (another stat; one I forgot to mention). There can be other, more immediate effects of using the Passions mechanics in game: states like Inspiration, Disheartened or Madness, all according to how rolls and roleplaying have gone.

Hope that gives you a clearer idea of whether it might be any use for your games.

[Jack7]

The Ideals are thirteen pairs of opposing Traits. Hm, actually, 'Traits' is more the term I should have used. Anyway, they can be used in checks or tests, and can increase or decrease (usually, if one half of a pair goes up, the other will go down), depending on what happens in game.

Passions can be a lot of things, apart from the usual ones in the Arthurian setting (Loyalty to one's lord, Honour, Hospitality and so on), and if they are rated particularly high, they continually add to a character's Glory (another stat; one I forgot to mention). There can be other, more immediate effects of using the Passions mechanics in game: states like Inspiration, Disheartened or Madness, all according to how rolls and roleplaying have gone.

Sounds interesting.

At this point, for the contest, and for general game development, that characters could gain reputations, based on their actions, as Heroes, Saints, or Geniuses (though not necessarily limited to only one category).

Right now I'm hoping to expand beyond "Roles," and "Classes" and into "Behavior" and to have behavior be a sort of parallel developmental track, like level progression (though it wouldn't necessarily operate in the same manner).

Act heroically and you gain a reputation as a hero which allows one to accrue certain benefits (or trade on your heroism for certain other benefits), act like a saint and that gives certain benefits, act brilliantly, ingeniously, or innovatively, and that gives certain befits. Benefits that are useful for both mechanical and role-playing purposes.

But such behavioral traits would not be limited or even tied to roles. A Wizard could behave in a saintly fashion, a Cleric could be heroic, a Barbarian could be ingenious. Such traits would be demonstrated by behavior in-game not predetermined by profession, class, background, level, type, roles, or anything like that.

Anyways, that's how I've got the ideas sketched out thus far.

I'm open to suggestions though.

[Spatula]

Herakles isn't a self-absorbed child? It's all well and good to point to romantic christian myths as examples of heroism, as those fit the knightly feel that you seem to be after. But trying to hammer the pre-christian european myths into the same mold doesn't work, as gizmo33 alludes to. Those cultures had different values and their legends reflect that.