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The various Oriental Adventures books for different editions have varied in their accuracy, their stereotypes, their generalisations, how fantastical their interpretation is, and so on.
If Dungeons and Dragons had been designed by an Asian, and Occidental Adventures had been written with similar disregard for the truth, what strange thing would have resulted?
I'm wondering if the answer is that it would look similar to this world's D&D - combining 17th-century ships with Jewish golems with Teutonic knights bashing heads in on a technicality, and so on. Or would it be monotheistic? Swords and sandals? About invasions and imperialism? Based on myths or fairytales or history?
Considering the stereotypes and historical inaccuracies in DnD regarding the assumed Western Middle Ages setting? I'd say about the same as we have now.
I also say it would look a lot like real D&D. It is not like D&D is remotely close to historical accuracy. Actually, I think the makers of various Oriental Adventures products were probably more interested in historical accuracy than the creators of core D&D were, and probably more so than the hypothetical Asian creators of D&D would be.
All of my experience with Japanese anime, manga, and videogames seems to back up that theory, at least.
Of course Occidental is a European word - real Occidental fiction is set in America.
European Occidentalism includes a lot of British comic strips set in a very British version of America or future America, such as Preacher or more famously Judge Dredd. It took marying an American for me to realise just how parochial these were.
I can't speak for everybody involved with the original Oriental Adventures, though I do know that Kelley Foote was a pretty big stickler for historical realism in design (and actual play) or, at the very least, verisimilitude. OTOH, he often lamented that TSR did not share his views and, IMHO, the truth of that recollection shines through in the original OA material.
It is an interesting thought exercise in my opinion Khuxan.
The problems that I see with an Occidental Setting and with D&D in general, per se, are exactly what you and others have implied, the problems of Era(s) [time], and geography(s) [space].
I run a semi-historical D&D milieu set on our world, circa 800 AD, and the geographic base of operations is Constantinople. We use real world religions, cultures, politics of the time period.
It is a D&D game mostly, with milieu and historical modifications I have written myself over the years. But the trouble with D&D and OA in regards to history is that one has to define exactly what one means by accuracy, and in regards to what time, and in what area. Eastern Europe and the Bulgars were extremely different from the Franks and the Carolingian Empire. The Russians far different from either. The Russians even different from the Vikings, though both were of same stock. The Italian city-sates, like Ravenna, not like their Roman and provincial forbearers. The Romans of Byzantium were nothing like the Romans of the Republic or Western Empire, and the Byzantines of the age of Justinian little like the Byzantines of the era around the Fall.
Also, do you include Africa in the Occident? Places like Carthage, Egypt, Libya, even Ethiopia played a large role in the West of the Romans and even of the Occident of the Byzantines. Are you just going to concentrate on Western Europe when one says Occident? Is Romania occident? It was after all named after Rome. What about the near-east, in which places like Syria and Israel and Palestine and even Persia were fundamental to the development of the Western Roman Empire, the Byzantines, and even to Western Europe? Would you include Islam as definitely Occidental, influencing the Occident, or Oriental in thought and nature?
The trouble with both D&D and OA (and I have OA too, and like it as a basis for developing more historically accurate game character models) and history is that both the time-frames and the geography are so sweeping that they cannot possibly be historically accurate specifically (or encompass real accuracy), though I think both efforts extract many important historical elements to create Cultural and Religious Game Archetypes.
If I had to describe it I would say both efforts cast a wide net, rather than a deep one. That is to say they are more interested in "sampling" some of the more important religious, mythical, and cultural Archetypes, over a wide range of geographies and historical eras, than they are interested in being accurate "in-depth." Which is another way of saying that the games wanted to embrace a lot of different possible milieus within one game umbrella, rather than concentrating on specific eras and geographies. Which is another way of saying the games wanted to reflect general cultural backgrounds and tendencies, but did not want to be tied to any specific milieu. They wanted to be milieu flexible.
Yeah, I think sampling might be a good way to put it. These games are not interested in detail as much as with "feel" and creating a sort of loose archetype of famous ideas and ideals (like with the Paladin).
If a D&D game had been designed by an Oriental writer or writers, rather than by Gygax (and the original D&D game was heavily occidental in basic modality) then I think they may very well have used some of the same tropes (though with different nomenclature, Paladins would have become Knights, Clerics would have become Priests, and so forth) and some very different ones (strict monotheism would have likely seemed exotic and fascinating in some ways to many Eastern minds in the same way paganism and polytheism might seem historically foundational in D&D sampling, but by the time era most of the original D&D "classes" - and they weren't really classes but rather professions - were structured then paganism was already an historical anachronism). For instance the Cleric is obviously not written to reflect paganism, but Christianity, so was the Paladin, a distinctly Christian cultural and mythical form and ideal. Nevertheless paganism was adopted as an anachronistic religious type or mode in D&D. It would also be very interesting to think of how an Oriental writer would have approached the idea of class and station very differently than Gygax. Gygax uses class to only very loosely and vaguely reflect what real class was, a social station. Instead he uses it really to describe profession or "vocation," - the Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard all reflect the idea of the "vocation." The East, generally speaking and up until recently has been much, much more fixed upon real and more historical and cultural class-ideals than has been the West. The West basically abandoned class, or made it anachronistic, long before the East, because of religious, economic, and political reasons. (Instead many in the West were far longer fixed upon the idea of race, rather than class, in a way making race a sort of "de facto class" in many cases.) It would be interesting to see how Eastern writers would have reinterpreted class in-game based on what they think it might have meant to the overall history of the West.
It would be I suspect an interesting exercise to "interpret the West" from outside and to see what some Easterners would have thought of as the most distinctive archetypes of the West to build a game around.
I agree with the general sentiment that it would be no less accurate than what we have. Historical accuracy was never a huge goal, even for antiquity obsessed DM's like Gygax.
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Also, do you include Africa in the Occident? Places like Carthage, Egypt, Libya, even Ethiopia played a large role in the West of the Romans and even of the Occident of the Byzantines. Are you just going to concentrate on Western Europe when one says Occident? Is Romania occident? It was after all named after Rome. What about the near-east, in which places like Syria and Israel and Palestine and even Persia were fundamental to the development of the Western Roman Empire, the Byzantines, and even to Western Europe? Would you include Islam as definitely Occidental, influencing the Occident, or Oriental in thought and nature?
Generally speaking, 'Western Civilization' has been considered to mean 'everything West of Persia'. This is how it is taught if you take a survey in 'Western Civilization' - whether it is in literature, art, or history. Granted, within that definition, there is generally a bias in any Anglo academic tradition best described as, "The center of civilization has been continually moving Westward." So, if you take an Anglo survey of 'Western Civilization', you'll generally start the course in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq) but soon move your interest to Judea and Greece (the spiritual and secular parents of Western tradition, respectively), and then move on to Rome, and then France and Germany, and finally end up in England and then maybe America. As the focus of the course moves Westward, you tend to lose touch with what is going on in the Eastern portion of the area called 'Western Civilization' except as it directly impacts the Western 'protagonist' culture. Thus, what goes on in Poland, the Balkans, and even the Ottoman empire - although quite important - will only get mentioned if it directly impacts where the attention has shifted.
So all the places you named with the exception of Persia (and sub-saharan Africa) would I think be considered Western. However, most of them would probably not be considered part of a core Western setting, but instead would typically get decorated onto that setting by supplements, much as a study of say Polan or the Portugese colonial/merchantile expansion into the far east or a study of Islam would be follow up on a general survey course.
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"The center of civilization has been continually moving Westward." So, if you take an Anglo survey of 'Western Civilization', you'll generally start the course in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq) but soon move your interest to Judea and Greece (the spiritual and secular parents of Western tradition, respectively)
I completely agree with that myself.
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and then move on to Rome, and then France and Germany, and finally end up in England and then maybe America. As the focus of the course moves Westward, you tend to lose touch with what is going on in the Eastern portion of the area called 'Western Civilization' except as it directly impacts the Western 'protagonist' culture. Thus, what goes on in Poland, the Balkans, and even the Ottoman empire - although quite important - will only get mentioned if it directly impacts where the attention has shifted.
So all the places you named with the exception of Persia (and sub-saharan Africa) would I think be considered Western. However, most of them would probably not be considered part of a core Western setting, but instead would typically get decorated onto that setting by supplements, much as a study of say Polan or the Portugese colonial/merchantile expansion into the far east or a study of Islam would be follow up on a general survey course.
I agree with that too, generally speaking.
I mention Persia not as being Occidental, per se, but for so long as being the main Oriental competitor and enemy of Greece, Rome, and later, Byzantium.
It would also be very interesting to see where and when an Oriental writer would begin Western Civilization as far as writing a fantasy game to reflect his interpretation of "the West."
First let me say, I am glad that the oriental adventure books lacked historical accuracy and realism, since I wanted Wuxia and stereotype in my asian adventures.
Second, more interesting to me than the cobbled setting you would get (as someone pointed out, Ancient Rome, Medieval England, etc all rolled into one), is the perspective you would get on the Western Character. It seems to me that the glue which binds the oriental setting, is the western view of asians as wise, honorable and determined. To me this is what makes the asian setting so fun. So how would Asian RPG designers depict the western character? I do know some people from asia, which doesn't make me an expert or anything, but they have told me that the asian stereotype of westerners is they are highly emotive, that they are all
christian, and they are all big.
Second, more interesting to me than the cobbled setting you would get (as someone pointed out, Ancient Rome, Medieval England, etc all rolled into one), is the perspective you would get on the Western Character.
PP, I learned Raja Yoga from a master who was originally from Thailand but went to India to study. He came to the US and took me as his only student, for about 6 years. Other than him, I've got some Indian friends, Korean friends, and some Chinese friends, and a couple of buddies of mine married Japanese and Korean girls. One still lives in Japan but to tell you the truth, in my opinion, Japan, Hong Kong, and South Korea are the most Western of all Oriental societies. Maybe Taiwan too.
I'd say from my experience that you bring up a good point, though I have some idea of what some Oriental would say about Westerners in general, and about modern Western culture in particular (many admire it in most respects, are disgusted with it in others, as am I to a degree), it would be hard for me to say how they would interpret Western culture and character historically speaking. I've discussed it from time to time and the ones I know really admire Knighthood, Chivalry, and Christianity as both a cultural and belief system, others are confused by Western religion. I've also seen a big interest in Western science and medicine and technology.
But it would be hard for me to say how the Western character might be interpreted "collectively."
I don't think it would be considered honorable in the same sense as Asian honor, though Knights and Paladins would be considered honorable. I think it would more be considered progressive and "intellectual" (the Wizard), monotheistic (the Cleric, though they would probably call a cleric a Priest), corrupt in a certain sense of the word (Thieves) and I'm not really sure how things like Bards and Druids (possibly Shinto-like?) would be interpreted. It would be interesting to see how they interpreted "barbarian," the "church," "kings and kingdoms," and "race" and other things like that.
PP, I learned Raja Yoga from a master who was originally from Thailand but went to India to study. He came to the US and took me as his only student, for about 6 years. Other than him, I've got some Indian friends, Korean friends, and some Chinese friends, and a couple of buddies of mine married Japanese and Korean girls. One still lives in Japan but to tell you the truth, in my opinion, Japan, Hong Kong, and South Korea are the most Western of all Oriental societies. Maybe Taiwan too.
I'd say from my experience that you bring up a good point, though I have some idea of what some Oriental would say about Westerners in general, and about modern Western culture in particular (many admire it in most respects, are disgusted with it in others, as am I to a degree), it would be hard for me to say how they would interpret Western culture and character historically speaking. I've discussed it from time to time and the ones I know really admire Knighthood, Chivalry, and Christianity as both a cultural and belief system, others are confused by Western religion. I've also seen a big interest in Western science and medicine and technology.
But it would be hard for me to say how the Western character might be interpreted "collectively."
I don't think it would be considered honorable in the same sense as Asian honor, though Knights and Paladins would be considered honorable. I think it would more be considered progressive and "intellectual" (the Wizard), monotheistic (the Cleric, though they would probably call a cleric a Priest), corrupt in a certain sense of the word (Thieves) and I'm not really sure how things like Bards and Druids (possibly Shinto-like?) would be interpreted. It would be interesting to see how they interpreted "barbarian," the "church," "kings and kingdoms," and "race" and other things like that.
You do raise a good point. It would depend on the Asian culture doing the interpretation. I am most familiar with Thai and Cambodian Culture. I am also married to a Thai Buddhist, one thing that jumps out at me, now that I am thinking about it, is this. Often her perspective, and the perspective of her Thai friends, seems built on the assumption of having many lives, and on the Buddhist belief that the goal is to become free of attachments. From her view, westerners have an intense desire to make their mark now. To make the most of this life. She also views westerners as extremely independent. There isn't the same level of obedience to parental figures here that you have in Thailand. Here we leave the home at 18 and pretty much live on our own after college, there it is common for kids to stay with their parents until their late twenties, early thirties, for an unwed woman, she could live with her parents for her whole life. We can pretty much do what we want with our lives, there your really tied down to family. So I think this extreme independence, and the live life to the fullest thing, would feature pretty strongly.
I was definitely thinking Record of the Lodoss War, Slayers, Weathering Continent, Ryu Knight and a host of other Eastern-Western Medieval Fantsy Anime.
Often her perspective, and the perspective of her Thai friends, seems built on the assumption of having many lives, and on the Buddhist belief that the goal is to become free of attachments. From her view, westerners have an intense desire to make their mark now. To make the most of this life. She also views westerners as extremely independent. There isn't the same level of obedience to parental figures here that you have in Thailand. Here we leave the home at 18 and pretty much live on our own after college, there it is common for kids to stay with their parents until their late twenties, early thirties, for an unwed woman, she could live with her parents for her whole life. We can pretty much do what we want with our lives, there your really tied down to family. So I think this extreme independence, and the live life to the fullest thing, would feature pretty strongly.
Well, you raise some really good points too PP, about Buddhism and reincarnation and Eastern religion and Western religion and independence. In a way Eastern religions are much more open and flexible, but also kind of meandering (as the Greeks would say, meaning wandering about in different directions), Western religions tend to be much more goal driven, time-conscious, and in secular life as well, culture is much more objective oriented and time conscious. And individualistic.
I'm also interested in the overlap of both cultures and religions as they intermingle. For instance my old Yoga master eventually became a devout Christian, perhaps partially through my influence (I was studying to be a Priest at that time) though I think he was always inclined in that direction, from early on. According to his stories. He though always remained a Yogin as well.
I've been a Christian since a little kid, but since studying Yoga I adopted many of the meditation, prayer, and psychological practices into my Christianity. But not in the same way that he did the reverse. It's hard to describe what I mean exactly and I think it reflects a different outlook on things like religion, culture, society, and background. I adopted practices from Yoga into my Christianity, he adopted Christianity as his Yoga. If that makes any sense. So I suspect religion would be approached differently, even when talking about the same things. Culture likewise.
Things like that have always fascinated me though.
Anyways nice yakkign at ya again, but I gotta hit the sack early tonight.
I gotta count at church tomorrow morning.
Well, you raise some really good points too PP, about Buddhism and reincarnation and Eastern religion and Western religion and independence. In a way Eastern religions are much more open and flexible, but also kind of meandering (as the Greeks would say, meaning wandering about in different directions), Western religions tend to be much more goal driven, time-conscious, and in secular life as well, culture is much more objective oriented and time conscious. And individualistic.
I'm also interested in the overlap of both cultures and religions as they intermingle. For instance my old Yoga master eventually became a devout Christian, perhaps partially through my influence (I was studying to be a Priest at that time) though I think he was always inclined in that direction, from early on. According to his stories. He though always remained a Yogin as well.
I've been a Christian since a little kid, but since studying Yoga I adopted many of the meditation, prayer, and psychological practices into my Christianity. But not in the same way that he did the reverse. It's hard to describe what I mean exactly and I think it reflects a different outlook on things like religion, culture, society, and background. I adopted practices from Yoga into my Christianity, he adopted Christianity as his Yoga. If that makes any sense. So I suspect religion would be approached differently, even when talking about the same things. Culture likewise.
Things like that have always fascinated me though.
Anyways nice yakkign at ya again, but I gotta hit the sack early tonight.
I gotta count at church tomorrow morning.
See ya.
Christianity has a long history of mysticism (as does Islam and Judaism) and I think meditation, at least to me, is easiest to understand from a Christian perspective through this lens. I know of many Catholics and Episcopals who have incorporated meditation into their faith (often at the urging of their priests), and I don't see anything about it that would be contrary to the faith. I know much less about Yoga, but it seems like it could be viewed in this way as well.
I was definitely thinking Record of the Lodoss War, Slayers, Weathering Continent, Ryu Knight and a host of other Eastern-Western Medieval Fantsy Anime.
Strangely this is what my view of D&D is anyhow.
AD
Lodoss War and Slayers really jump out at me as well. Crystania also.
Maybe back in the 19th century American occidental was Westerns. But now-a-days, American occidental is anime and the sort, or in other words, European oriental. Full circle.
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Originally Posted by S'mon
Of course Occidental is a European word - real Occidental fiction is set in America.
European Occidentalism includes a lot of British comic strips set in a very British version of America or future America, such as Preacher or more famously Judge Dredd. It took marying an American for me to realise just how parochial these were.
There isn't the same level of obedience to parental figures here that you have in Thailand. Here we leave the home at 18 and pretty much live on our own after college, there it is common for kids to stay with their parents until their late twenties, early thirties, for an unwed woman, she could live with her parents for her whole life. We can pretty much do what we want with our lives, there your really tied down to family. So I think this extreme independence, and the live life to the fullest thing, would feature pretty strongly.
Except that you don't have to go back much more than a century (and in some cases - rural France, the rural South, Latin America, etc - not even that) for the cultural distinction you mention here to be pretty much unnoticable. You aren't picking up on a cultural distinction that is Western vs. Eastern, as much as it is post-industrial vs. pre-industrial. Nothing about the pre-industrial West anywhere in the West would have been different than what you describe. In fact, in most societies prior to the 20th century, it would be unusual for children to not live either in their Parents house or as neighbors on the same property or for an unwed woman to live anywhere but with her parents.
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