General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
For other Fechtbuchs, try Christian Tobler's translations of Master Lictenauer's sword techniques. I so love some of them, like cutting from Von Tag so that a parry becomes a simultaenous attack.
Then there is Fiore De Liberi's "Fiore di Battaga" which is probably the most complete medieval Fechtbuch I have seen, covering unarmed, dagger, sword and polearms. Bob Charron has a good translation but I am not sure if he has published it yet.
Even went to a course once on techniques from De Liberi and some of the plays for disarming are awesome. I can still do one that completely disarms someone wielding a longsword, as long as you can get in close.
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True, though it's worth remembering these fechtbuchs are part of a tradition which goes back at least to the anonymous I.33 manual, which is 13th Century
In case some pepole wanted to see what drill and sparring with these systems looks like, there is a modern revival of these martial arts going on right now (since about 1998 when Sydney Anglo Published The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe, which kind of brought these old books back into the public eye... many of them have been translated now from latin or various archaic dialects and there are probably 30 or 40 large HEMA groups around the world who do Medieval / Renaissance European Martial Arts, including in the US, Europe, China, Australia, South Africa, Singaporee and the Philipines.
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Yes. And note that the presence (and type) of armor has a major impact on fighting style.
In Lichtenauer tradition German Renaissance fencing there are two recognized types of fighting: Blossfechten, which means unarmored fighting, and Harnischfechten, which means fully armored fighting (literally fighting in Harness).
Unlike in DnD, in the real world plate or even mail armor were basically impervious to sword cuts. So the Harnischfechten fencing emphasizes half-swording (gripping the blade)
and ringen (the German Renaissance equivalent to Jujitsu).
Harnichfechten is fairly simple: it boils down to fighting at the half-sword, using ringen or ringen am-schwert (jujitsu while using the sword for leverage) to take your opponent down, and then make use of powerful half-sword thrusting attacks to finish them off...
...or using the pommel or quillions of your sword like a mace using the Mortschlag ('murder stroke')
Quite often harnischfechten fights would end up finished with daggers. Judicial combat among the aristocracy would often be fought in full armor, commoners usually fought in street clothes or sometimes partial armor (or special leather suits). In many cases these fights were not to the death, but if they were the dagger often had the last word.
There was also a considerable amount of attention in many manuals paid to specialized weapons like Poll Axes and military picks which were designed to puncture armor.
Blossfechten is the more sophisticated fencing system, and would also include fighting in light armor or partial armor. If your opponent was wearing a mail shirt for example, you cut somewhere else. Excavations of major medieval / Renaissance battlefields like Wisby show that most of the skeletons with signs of battle damage recieved wounds where there was no armor- primarily the lower legs. A few skeletons had both legs severed, apparently by the same cut.
In many of the Italian fencing manuals and in their surviving legal dueling codes it is recommended to check both combattants before a duel or judicial combat to make sure they aren't wearing mail (armor) under their clothing, or carrying any magical charms
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 16th June 2009 at 04:27 AM..
"I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge - myth is more potent than history - dreams are more powerful than facts - hope always triumphs over experience - laughter is the cure for grief - love is stronger than death." -Robert Fulghum
Gives a different perspective on combat than gaming rules generally emulate.
I know its a tangent to this cool thread, but that's one of the things I like most about HERO, actually.
Martial arts are broken down into distinct moves that you purchase individually...and if you pay the cost, can be used with a weapon.
So, for instance, you can build a capoirist who has all of his nifty moves (simulatable in many game systems) who can also use them with shackles or manacles- something integral to the style but not easily modeled in most game systems.
Which means in a Fantasy HERO campaign, you could actually have your PC freely mixing Harnischfechten fencing and ringen in full armor.
I suspect I could do much the same with M&M (and its fantasy version, W&W), and others could do that with GURPS.
Anyone aware of other RPGs out there that can do this?
I know its a tangent to this cool thread, but that's one of the things I like most about HERO, actually.
Martial arts are broken down into distinct moves that you purchase individually...and if you pay the cost, can be used with a weapon.
So, for instance, you can build a capoirist who has all of his nifty moves (simulatable in many game systems) who can also use them with shackles or manacles- something integral to the style but not easily modeled in most game systems.
Which means in a Fantasy HERO campaign, you could actually have your PC freely mixing Harnischfechten fencing and ringen in full armor.
I suspect I could do much the same with M&M (and its fantasy version, W&W), and others could do that with GURPS.
Anyone aware of other RPGs out there that can do this?
I dunno much about HERO, but I know SR - at least, SR4 - has martial arts that you can take as qualities on starting a character, with a pretty damn long list of 'em.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
I know its a tangent to this cool thread, but that's one of the things I like most about HERO, actually.
Martial arts are broken down into distinct moves that you purchase individually...and if you pay the cost, can be used with a weapon.
So, for instance, you can build a capoirist who has all of his nifty moves (simulatable in many game systems) who can also use them with shackles or manacles- something integral to the style but not easily modeled in most game systems.
Which means in a Fantasy HERO campaign, you could actually have your PC freely mixing Harnischfechten fencing and ringen in full armor.
I suspect I could do much the same with M&M (and its fantasy version, W&W), and others could do that with GURPS.
Anyone aware of other RPGs out there that can do this?
Ahem.... cough.
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
I dunno much about HERO, but I know SR - at least, SR4 - has martial arts that you can take as qualities on starting a character, with a pretty damn long list of 'em.
Very cool stuff
well when you think about, say in Greek times, you often see folk (in art, books etc) supposedly going for the knees with a shortsword, or saying that's why they wore greaves as protection from sword slashes.
meh, that's silly, the opponent would smash your head with his shield because the length of blade is such you have to get too damn close, to slash them on the shin or knee in many fights!
Spears would have been used to stab under the shield into the lower legs, hence the use of greaves. Folk think you have ot only stikie mortal blows but no, the point is to survive, and crippling your opponent, thus he dies from blood loss or whatever, is effective.
Teacher I knew long time ago in the Scottish Borders, explained that back in the 1600 to 1700s, there was a fencing trick called a "Lockerbie Lick", where they'd slash above the eyebrow of the opponent, so they'd be blinded by flowing blood.
More conteporary, a head butt is often called a "Glasgow Kiss".
So you can imagine in a D&D setting, various combat tricks/styles would have names associated with them, by champions, regions, races etc.
Maybe he was referring to the link in his signature...?
__________________ "Many point out that this battle against the darkness is an impossible one, and they may well be right. Impossible or not, however, the battle for righteousness is one that only a few heroes are brave enough to undertake"
Very cool stuff
well when you think about, say in Greek times, you often see folk (in art, books etc) supposedly going for the knees with a shortsword, or saying that's why they wore greaves as protection from sword slashes.
meh, that's silly, the opponent would smash your head with his shield because the length of blade is such you have to get too damn close, to slash them on the shin or knee in many fights!
Spears would have been used to stab under the shield into the lower legs, hence the use of greaves. Folk think you have ot only stikie mortal blows but no, the point is to survive, and crippling your opponent, thus he dies from blood loss or whatever, is effective.
In a very early Greek context, you may have a point (no pun intended), since Spears were by far the most ubiquitous weapons on the battlefield. We really don't know all that much about the details of how the Bronze Age Greeks fought, other than what can be gleaned from vases and epic poems.
For the later Iron Age Greeks and the Romans though we do have various histories starting with Herodotus, and detailed military manuals like Vegetius.
In a Medieval or Renaissance context though we really don't have to guess at all- the fighting systems are well documented in fencing manuals dating back to at least the 13th Century there are dozens of these manuals extant, which go into very specific detail about how people fought.
There is also a huge abundance of Medieval and Renaissance art and literature, far more than we have for the Greeks, and the Icelandic sagas before that.
For the "Dark Ages" / Northern European Iron Age we have the Icelandic Sagas. Here the tactic of cutting peoples legs off were so common that many swords were given names like "leg biter" and "foot cutter", as were the names of certain famous Vikings who survived such incidents such as Onund Treeleg from [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grettis_saga]Grettirs Saga[url]. Of course few survived such an injury.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egils Saga
After getting ready, they went to the island.
“There was a fine field not far from the sea, where the holmganga was to be. There the place of the holmganga was marked by stones placed in a ring around it. Ljót came thither with his men, prepared for the holmganga with shield and sword. He was very large and strong, and when he arrived on the field at the holmgang-place the Berserk frenzy came upon him, and he howled fiercely and bit his shield.
“Egil made ready for the holmganga, having his old shield, and girt with the sword Nadr, with Dragvandil in his hand. He went inside the marks of the duelling-place (i.e., the squares marked out round the cloak), but Ljót was not ready. Egil raised his sword and sang.
“After the song Ljót came forward and pronounced the law of the holmganga, that he who stepped beyond the mark-stones which are set around the place of holmaganga should ever afterwards be called nithing (coward).
“Then they rushed at each other, and Egil struck at Ljót, who covered himself with the shield, while Egil dealt blow after blow so that Ljót could not strike him. He drew back to get room to wield his sword, but Egil went equally fast alter him and smote most violently. Ljót went out beyond the mark-stones and to and fro on the field. Thus went the first attack. Then Ljót asked to be allowed to rest, which Egil granted. . . .1
“Egil bid Ljót to make himself ready. ‘I want this fought out.’ Ljót started to his feet, and Egil ran forward and at once struck at him. He went so close to him that he stepped back, and his shield did not cover him. Then Egil smote him above the knee, and cut off his leg. Ljót fell, and at once died”
Quote:
Teacher I knew long time ago in the Scottish Borders, explained that back in the 1600 to 1700s, there was a fencing trick called a "Lockerbie Lick", where they'd slash above the eyebrow of the opponent, so they'd be blinded by flowing blood.
Sounds like a good trick, but if you can cut his head, why not split his skull?
Quote:
More conteporary, a head butt is often called a "Glasgow Kiss".
So you can imagine in a D&D setting, various combat tricks/styles would have names associated with them, by champions, regions, races etc.
Hm, "Dwarven Nut Punch"...works for me!!
This is essentially the kind of stuff we did put in the Codex, only we relied on historical techniques for our sources. But you could rename them whatever you liked (or base them on fantasy races or cultures etc.)
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 17th June 2009 at 04:41 AM..
Reason: didn't finish post due to being interrupted
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