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I'm currently writing the final chapter of the Heroic Tier of my campaign, which should hopefully eventually go on to the end of Epic (we're playing 4e if you hadn't noticed). Anyway I was considering having an artifact that is in the player's possession demand one of the PCs sacrifice their lives for the greater good. This would occur at the very end of the adventure, and I was looking at is as a bit of a capping point, where the next adventure picks up many months later. Does anyone think this could be a good idea? I know plenty of you will say it's a terrible idea. Could there be a right way of going about this though?
Also when I say sacrifice, I mean it, no Raise Dead for that PC.
I think it's a fine way to end a campaign, assuming the players are playing heroic PCs and are of the type to find it fulfilling. I've done that myself.
But to do it in the middle of a campaign, with more adventures to come, essentially forcing a player to create a new character? That's trickier, and it largely depends on the group. If you have a player that you truly believe will relish the chance to play through such a scene, even if it means losing a character, go for it. And if you have a player that you know is looking for an excuse to change characters, that's fine too. But if you aren't certain about one of these things, I wouldn't do it.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
I'm with Mouse. I don't have a problem with the idea in principle - after all, isn't it often said that without risk there isn't any fun? But, to me, doing this sort of thing in what is literally the first third of the campaign seems anticlimatic to me. Maybe you're trying to get across the impression that everyone is expendable. That's fine - but at this point in the story I'd follow the typical Hero's Journey route instead - have a mentor figure kick the bucket instead as an example for the heroes to follow later.
Star Wars did it (twice!). Lord of the Rings did it (though it cheated in bringing him back later :P). It works. Or at least, it works so long as you have a mentor figure to whom the players are genuinely attached. That may not be the case.
I don't think killing PCs is a bad idea necessarily. I'm thinking about doing something similar to you in the last tier of my campaign. But, so early on, even if it is the end of the Heroic tier, seems off-key to me. I don't think it will get the reaction you're looking for. Save the epic "go on without me, I'll hold off the ten thousand demons" sort of stuff for the epic tier (that is why it is called that, after all ). For now - leave the sacrifices up to NPCs. I think, narrative-wise as well as gameplay-wise, it will work better overall.
I agree that killing a PC mid-campaign is usually a bad idea.
However, the thing about a sacrifice is that the PCs/players believe that the PC is going to die. Maybe they have to decide among themselves who it will be, maybe one PC knocks another out to spare them and take the martyr role themself. At the final hour, it turns out that "death" wasn't meant literally, but rather metaphorically (maybe unaligned PC becomes good, or a paladin abandons code and continues as a fighter). It's also possible that the keeper of the artifact or the artifact itself was testing the bearer - being willing to die is the final piece of the artifact's puzzle and it bestows something upon the PC(s) before moving on.
A sacrifice that is forced upon the PCs - one that has to be made to prevent world destruction or something like that - is a bad thing. It doesn't feel heroic and will probably be seen as an undeserved punishment or DM's power trip.
A heroic sacrifice may be a great thing to roleplay, but only if it really is a player's choice - that is, if there is a viable (but not as selfless) alternative. Maybe just moving away, leaving some people to their own fate. Maybe surrendering. Maybe hurting someone innocent. Maybe killing someone who doesn't deserve death. Maybe torturing to get some crucial information.
It should be "I'd rather fight and die than see them slaughtered" or "I'd rather sacrifice myself than fall as low as our enemies". Never just "One of us HAS to die".
I'll give a few more details to see if it's a little more palatable to do it Heroic. The PCs have been doing various things to fend off an army of giants from a metropolis. One thing they do is recover this artifact, which will be used to summon the avatar of a god to destroy the army of giants, thus saving hundreds of thousands of lives. So the idea is that in order to call the avatar, someone needs to give up their life, say by transforming into the avatar.
As far as my player's go, I have a few actors, a few treasure hunters and a few in between. I know at least one of the actors would love to do it, but the problem there is they are the ones who have gone through the most PC turnover, one because he kept having his PC run away for various reasons, the other I just kill in combat, but he really likes his current character. There is no way one of the treasure hunters would do it, they are treasure hunters after all. And I think maybe one of the in-betweeners might be willing. Of course, they could all surprise me. I've been pretty good at leading them by the nose without making it too obvious ie. they make the choices I want them to make.
Final death via sacrifice is best left to an opt-in situation, really. Thusly, if nobody is going to want in, you've best plan a good olde 'third option' for solving the problem, else there will be more problems. And, why must it be one of the pc's who die, in this situation?
In my current campaign, I made this an "option". Rather than requiring the players to sacrifice themselves, they were fed some cryptic information on the gate that the BBEG had opened. They believed they could defeat said BBEG then close the portal. When the fight started slipping (they weren't doing their best), the paladin realized he could close the gate much in the same way as a history footnote on a previous paladin. He suceeded at the needed skill check and sacrificed himself to close the gate.
He's now playing the character's son in the same game, which picked up a few weeks after the gate was closed.
I never stated this would work, but when the player suggested he wanted to try, I let him know the likely outcome and he went for it.
Akaiku, the reason I originally came up with this idea was because I know I'd have pretty fond memories of a PC I made that gave up his life in this sort of manner, but maybe that's just the actor in me. It just seems so storybook to me, and kinda lame if I have some random NPC they just met give up their life, like there is no weight to the moment.
I guess that's really what I'm looking for, some way to add weight to the climax/epilogue of the Heroic tier. Anyone have some other ideas for me maybe, following the context I set up earlier?
As I recall the "Shackled City Adventure path" had a heroic sacrifice component. Except you didn't know it but you came out the other end with a "template". You threw yourself into a pillar of fire to stop the "bbeg" in occipitus. You thought you would die but ended up controlling occipitus your character lost an eye permanently and it turned into a smoking hole. You gained a few feats or powers (sorry it's been a while).
My thought would be to do something like that. Have the players and characters believe they are sacrificing the character, have the avatar vanish and the old character showed up "altered" in some manner. maybe remove a magic item slot permanently but add something equivalent to that slot that grows in strength to remain "competitive" with equivalent level loot.
Thanks for the idea Zimri. I think I'm ready to start writing the final encounters of the tier now. I think I will test my PCs to see exactly how heroic and selfless they truly are, but give them a nice surprise like you suggested, if not I'll have something else happen. It'll be a lot of work I think to set the tone of the moment just right, since my group is a bunch of jokesters.
). For now - leave the sacrifices up to NPCs. I think, narrative-wise as well as gameplay-wise, it will work better overall.
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