General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
yah, you can get it straight from the WotC site, without going through itunes.
I realize I can download it manually from the site... I meant a link that lets me put it into my automatic podcast download software that is not itunes.
I'm pretty sure they're forgetting/ignoring fighter marking as well (e.g. Binwin runs up and attacks a crossbowman, who then shifts away without eating an AOO). They made the same error in the KOTS podcast.
Yeah, not only that but the cleric keeps using Righteous Brand and forgetting to give anyone the bonus to hit at all. He remembered once up until last weeks. I haven't heard this weeks yet.
Between forgetting to roll twice for the Oath, forgetting the marking, the bonus for Righteous Brand, and the +4 extra to hit that Wil would have if he remembered his prof bonus and magic weapon bonus, the podcasts really begin to get very painful.
There was a round in last week's episode where an enemy was bloodied and nearly dead, had the fighter in a grab and was doing ongoing 10 while it grabbed. The cleric hit it with Righteous Brand and forgot to give the bonus to anyone. Then the Avenger missed (by 3 or 4, just enough that if he'd remembered his own bonuses OR the cleric's bonus, he'd have hit) and could have pulled the enemy 1 square in order to get the fighter out of the grab. However, he missed, so the fighter took 10 at the beginning of his turn and fell unconscious putting them into panic mode.
I was almost yelling at my computer as it played the MP3 file.
__________________ Majoru Oakheart
Secret Attorney of the Guidelines for the <Sorry, you didn't make the DC 20 Perception check, and you don't have another minor action to try again. Next time try finding an Elf to stand nearby you.>
Yeah, I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this.
I don't even play 4e, but, jeez, did these guys even read the books? I mean, they've actually got the cards in front of them and they can't keep stuff straight.
The one that got me was from a couple episodes ago when the Dwarf (Binwin?) got pushed into the construct bear trap thingie. Umm, he's a dwarf. He got pushed 1. Dwarves don't have to get pushed if they don't want to. ((Dwarven step (I might have the name wrong there) lets you reduce any push by 1 square))
I'm not going to put this on the DM at all either. These guys really, really need to sit down for a few minutes and get their rules straight.
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
Yeah, not only that but the cleric keeps using Righteous Brand and forgetting to give anyone the bonus to hit at all. He remembered once up until last weeks. I haven't heard this weeks yet.
Between forgetting to roll twice for the Oath, forgetting the marking, the bonus for Righteous Brand, and the +4 extra to hit that Wil would have if he remembered his prof bonus and magic weapon bonus, the podcasts really begin to get very painful.
There was a round in last week's episode where an enemy was bloodied and nearly dead, had the fighter in a grab and was doing ongoing 10 while it grabbed. The cleric hit it with Righteous Brand and forgot to give the bonus to anyone. Then the Avenger missed (by 3 or 4, just enough that if he'd remembered his own bonuses OR the cleric's bonus, he'd have hit) and could have pulled the enemy 1 square in order to get the fighter out of the grab. However, he missed, so the fighter took 10 at the beginning of his turn and fell unconscious putting them into panic mode.
I was almost yelling at my computer as it played the MP3 file.
No offense, but I also hear a party that is having a large amount of fun at the table. Sure they don't know the system as well as they could, but I'd defiantly rather play with them then some one who yells at some one just because they missed a silly rule.
No offense, but I also hear a party that is having a large amount of fun at the table. Sure they don't know the system as well as they could, but I'd defiantly rather play with them then some one who yells at some one just because they missed a silly rule.
As someone who has spent waaaaay too much time worrying about silly rules I would just like to say: QFT.
If you are having fun you can't be doing it wrong.
No offense, but I also hear a party that is having a large amount of fun at the table. Sure they don't know the system as well as they could, but I'd defiantly rather play with them then some one who yells at some one just because they missed a silly rule.
And I agree with this to a degree. They do sound like they are having a blast. But, by the same token, the encounters are far more difficult than they should be, simply because they haven't taken the time to read the rules.
If it was one lone rules miss, that's fine. Heck, that happens all the time to all of us. But, even from my fairly uninformed position, I can count many, many times they are missing rules and it's biting them on the ass.
I think the point isn'T that they aren't having fun. They really sound like they are. It's just a bit frustrating to hear someone making the same mistake over and over again, particularly when it's very basic elements that taking 30 seconds to read could solve.
It's like watching a pitcher throw with the wrong hand. Sure, he might be having a blast, but, it does make me go "buh?"
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
Well, remember most of the table consists of not just people new to D&D but new to TT RPGs in general right?
I think the mistakes are good, because it shows new players (whom I think the podcats are really designed for) that mistakes happen and people forget lots of stuff, but it's still fun. (I kind of wonder if some of it isn't intentional to sort of help new players feel like they're in this together with the PVP newbies... And now we have a moe experienced Will Wheaton showing them the "role" playing aprt as well...)
I also kind of wonder... If any of we more experienced players recorded our own sessions, how many mistakes would we pick up on? I bet in the thick of things most of us miss a whole lot more then we ever realize we do...
...Stuff gets overlooked at the table, yes. But we're talking about things that are pretty basic, and fundamental to the system -- at-wills and class features. Kind of like forgetting your barbarian can rage, or your cleric can cast heals... Do they deserve that much of a n00b pass, given that it's WOTC's own podcast, and Perkins is running the game?
No offense, but I also hear a party that is having a large amount of fun at the table. Sure they don't know the system as well as they could, but I'd defiantly rather play with them then some one who yells at some one just because they missed a silly rule.
Yeah, but if I was the Dwarf in the beartrap and I died instead of being saved at the last minute like he was in the podcast, I think I'd be a little annoyed. What does the party do now? Do they head back to town in order to get a Raise Dead? Do they continue playing while I make up a new character? If they leave and come back will we have to spend another hour or 2 killing off the same monsters as they reinforce the place?
Especially when it makes such a huge difference. The people in the podcast were completely oblivious, so they didn't notice the mistakes. So, they had lots of fun. But, if I died and at the end of the battle someone said "Oh, the Avenger has 4 less to hit than he should, the cleric hasn't been adding his bonus due to Righteous Brand those 3 times he hit this battle." I'd be the first one to ask the DM if I could get brought back to life for free since we weren't playing with the rules and it's fairly obvious that if the Avenger hit with all of his attacks, I wouldn't have died.
I'd also likely be told by the DM that I couldn't, and that next time I should remind them so we didn't forget the rules.
__________________ Majoru Oakheart
Secret Attorney of the Guidelines for the <Sorry, you didn't make the DC 20 Perception check, and you don't have another minor action to try again. Next time try finding an Elf to stand nearby you.>
I think the only thing I notice is their level of frustration with their luck/dice rolls. There are always frustrating rolls of the dice, but they should be having more attempts on some (saves, etc) and get better results on others. Throughout much of the podcast (both of them) they mention how unlucky they've been with rolling.
Still a lot of fun to listen to though and I hope there's a series 3.
I blame the DM, not the players. Experienced DM running a game for newbies? I'd expect to help people out with the rules, spot where they were missing something, ask what they want to do with their bonus and so forth.
Games should be fun and they are clearly having fun, which is great. Would they be having more fun or less fun if Chris helped them out with lots of basic rules bits such as has been mentioned here? I think they would probably have been having more fun (Wil especially!)
Cheers
__________________ Plane Sailing
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"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
I'm just wondering how many sessions are involved in the recordings. If the first PA/PvP podcast as well as the current one were each one long session edited into episodes then the lack of rules familiarity by the crew is totally understandable. I do agree that having fun is the main goal, but knowing the group is made up of relative newbies to 4th edition in the PA/PvP crew as well as a total newbie to 4th edition in WW, I would have liked to have seen at least a few reminders on what bonuses they were forgetting.
Well, remember most of the table consists of not just people new to D&D but new to TT RPGs in general right?
I think the mistakes are good, because it shows new players (whom I think the podcats are really designed for) that mistakes happen and people forget lots of stuff, but it's still fun. (I kind of wonder if some of it isn't intentional to sort of help new players feel like they're in this together with the PVP newbies... And now we have a moe experienced Will Wheaton showing them the "role" playing aprt as well...)
I also kind of wonder... If any of we more experienced players recorded our own sessions, how many mistakes would we pick up on? I bet in the thick of things most of us miss a whole lot more then we ever realize we do...
Oh, 100% agree. I have transcripts of my games and I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that stuff gets missed just about every session.
But, as was mentioned, I don't think I would miss quite this much. It's one thing to screw up AD&D initiative rules or 3e grapple rules, but, something like Dwarven Step? That's pretty basic.
To be fair though, we have to remember that while there may be a week or two between episodes, there's only a minute or two for them at the recording. It got missed the first time and will likely get missed for the entire time.
Now, if they have a third podcast and these things STILL get missed, then, yup they should get introduced to a few rules forums.
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
Well, remember most of the table consists of not just people new to D&D but new to TT RPGs in general right?
No, Mike/Gabe/Jim Darkmagic, is new to tabletop. Scott, Jerry, and Will have all played to varying degrees. IIRC: Jerry was actively playing 3rd, Wil was mostly an armchair 3rd, Scott was a AD&D 2e player.
The most painful mistake was in the first podcast was hearing them ask Chris to confirm that you could only use one encounter power in each encounter and only one daily power in each day. Chris just didn't get what they said, as iot seems SO obviously wrong once you know the answer.
I think the only thing I notice is their level of frustration with their luck/dice rolls. There are always frustrating rolls of the dice, but they should be having more attempts on some (saves, etc) and get better results on others. Throughout much of the podcast (both of them) they mention how unlucky they've been with rolling.
Yeah, but they weren't rolling all that bad. That's the problem. I think a number of the times Wil missed would have hit if he remembered his bonuses. Especially with the Cleric buffs. I doubt he'd have been nearly as frustrated if he'd been hitting all the time.
__________________ Majoru Oakheart
Secret Attorney of the Guidelines for the <Sorry, you didn't make the DC 20 Perception check, and you don't have another minor action to try again. Next time try finding an Elf to stand nearby you.>
Yeah, but they weren't rolling all that bad. That's the problem. I think a number of the times Wil missed would have hit if he remembered his bonuses. Especially with the Cleric buffs. I doubt he'd have been nearly as frustrated if he'd been hitting all the time.
Oh, I agree. That's what I meant by -
Quote:
they should be having more attempts on some (saves, etc) and get better results on others.
While its true they're having fun, they would have had better results if they'd remembered some of those rules.
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