General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Ah, gotcha. I did not get your meaning. WotC could not send ENW a "cease and desist" and then claim that they didn't have knowledge of what was going on @ ENW, since they have a presence here (and a legal agreement with the site). Or, rather, they could, but it wouldn't work because contact can be proven. Makes sense.
We're all going to read into that void as we see fit, and without numbers that neither of us have access to, neither my skepticism nor others fanboyism is going to bend much.
Would it hurt too much to write "my skepticism nor others positive outlook" instead of slinging the "fanboyism" word around?
I mean, out of respect for fellow posters and all that?
/M
__________________ iAltdorf. An interactive map of the capital of the Empire in WFRP! Download today! Can be used in any fantasy campaign!
http://altdorfer.blogspot.com - Check out the Altdorf Correspondent! A WFRP blog about life in the Imperial capital.
"All editions of D&D are awesome." - Fifth Element (EN World Forums, 2008)
”The tendency to confuse personal taste with objective quality is nearly universal.” - Robin D. Laws – Robin’s Laws of Good Gamemastering (Steve Jackson Games, 2002)
Everyone hated TSR. Well done WOTC for not learning by their mistakes. 3E and 3.5E (I'm not going to start on that oldy) made them lots and lots of money even though it was pirated to death and had an OGL.
~ don't try to use fancy characters to get around profanity filters please - PS~
Where is TSR now.
It is a bad sign for WOTC.
When a company gets greedy, or because of bad accounting and management need greater and greater profits in order to balance the books, even if they are in reality making good profits but not enough to keep up, they start clamping down on everything like locusts swarming and destroying their food source in the process.
D&D is a hobby. A hobby thrives on getting your hands dirty making stuff. How can you make stuff for D&D without putting copyrighted material in it?
Who is going to download a bunch of powercards for the sake of stealing the rules? It is as stupid as taking a DMs books back off him because he showed them to the players. If WOTC want people to buy their power cards rather than have people download a set, print them out on a printer and then glue them to some card, then make the power cards well.
Dumb.
To be fair, from what I remember the power cards on this site were covered in official copyrighted logos, which you can't really blame them for wanting them removed.
Last edited by Plane Sailing; 20th February 2009 at 01:40 PM..
I think the 4e Fan Site Policy will be a good thing once it's out. It will at least help (better) clarify what can and can't be done, people can refer to it. At the moment there seems uncertainty except in definite cases of gross violation of copyright, which Wizards demonstratably don't want.
It is the case that common sense can never be relied upon, simply because it does not exist. 'Common Sense' is nothing more than a set of enthnographic preconceptions. A case in point: The Aztecs ritually sacrificed up to 30,000 people a year to ensure the sun rose every morning. If you wanted the sun to rise that's what had to be done, just 'common sense'.
Ultimately D&D-related sites are playing in Wizards' sandpit. In the current absence of a Fan Site policy, if you think what you want to do may cause an issue, perhaps a good approach may be to ask someone at Wizards, beforehand? I don't know if that's a realistic option, but hopefully it's a positive suggestion!
Just because WotC can charge for something doesn't mean it should. I'm a sales engineer, so I've seen where a "value-add" given for free engenders customer loyalty and where charging for a value-add pisses a happy customer off. I mean, are the potential revenues for power cards really that great? If they are, then WotC made the right move - for WotC.
Now as I said, I don't know the timing involved, nor do I know the market demand for power cards, or what price point that market will bear - so I'm not blaming WotC or accusing them of anything. It is what it is.
Now all of the above may be the best possible move for WotC. Business is business and if I were on their side of the table, maybe I'd make the same decisions. But as a gamer, a GM, and a customer, some of these moves decrease choices and add expense (if I choose to purchase, of course). That's just an objective fact - whether it's good or bad is left to each person to decide. WotC doing something just because they can due to their size, market share, or brand recognition seems like poor reasons for a customer to justify such actions, IMO.
If Power Card revenues will rival that of a rulebook, then maybe it's worth it. But if they didn't come up with the idea until after fans posted homemade ones on websites...well just because they can doesn't necessarily mean they should.
To be fair to WOTC, I believe that power cards were planned before the website even went up. If they are indeed being released very shortly then the concept and plans for them probably existed before the release of the 4E rulebooks.
As far as what a company should be charging for, that depends on the company, thier primary product, and thier customer base. As things stand right now power cards are a handy game accessory that can enhance an existing product (4E core rules), but isn't a requirement for using that product. Minis are in that same catagory. One can use tokens, or whatever to replace the functionality of a mini.
If it is WOTC's intention to transition cards into a core product rather than a game aid, then the free distribution of such cards becomes the equivalent of pirate pdfs of the core rulebooks.
My theory (not supported by any evidence other than a gut feeling) is that WOTC is looking at going to a card based model for D&D.This doesn't make WOTC evil, but it would be a step farther away from what I believe D&D is all about. Factors that lead me to believe this are:
1) The editing horrors of the 4E core books. Books are expensive to print and customers (rightly) get angry over books with huge amounts of errata that require pages of web content to correct.
2) Due to the electronic subscription model introduced with DDI, the core mechanics can be updated regularly.Not having large core rulebooks in print means more rules corrections/tweaking can be done electronically.
3) The successful track record that WOTC has with card games. MTG is huge and Hasbro knows this. To Hasbro, D&D is just another IP that is currently barely a blip on the radar. Card games are a strength for WOTC, why not take advantage of that?
4) The current edition of a game makes the best testing ground for the next one. Elements of 4E began to appear in late 3.5 products. Power cards are a good first step in seeing how the format is received by current players.
Its not suprising. WOTC has every right to demand that its copyrighted materials not be distributed free of charge.
The genius part was letting the site operate for as long as it did. Why pay for market research when fans will do it for nothing? The site proved that there is a demand for such cards now WOTC can sell them.
It is OK for WOTC to allow fan sites to give them free advertisements, and then shut them down as they see fit? No wonder the GSL is lagging, it is too convenient for WOTC.
yet ANOTHER reason not to support $e.
To be fair TSR was not much better, but at least they did not market new editions by trying to convince everyone that the good product that was on the market was actually bad.
I am glad that new companies like Paizo will carry the torch.
It is OK for WOTC to allow fan sites to give them free advertisements, and then shut them down as they see fit?
It's not an "advertisement" when someone steals your work and makes it available for free to anyone. Let's say you spend two years writing a novel, and you finally get it published. I take it, scan it and make the text available for free - with an identical font and cover image - on the iphone app store. Is this an advertisement for your book?
Of course it isn't.
I thought the 4e power card site was cool too, but the guys running it were knowingly breaking the law. No one should be upset that this isn't okay.
__________________ - Piratecat, EN World Admin
Currently editing the 4e War of the Burning Sky adventure path. Support EN Publishing, get excellent modules!
see that was the big bad side of OGL...dozens of books that looked compattable that were not...ones that were broken, or just didn't fit...
please tell me that is a joke...I would rather D&D die then let piazo hold the reigns...
Well you have Ed Greenwood signing on, Elaine Cunningham doing work for them. MANY of the old designers from 3rd edition (Sean K reynolds to na,e a few) working on Paizo...
Pathfinder is going to be MORE like D&D in everything but name.
WOTC at this point might as well stamp Dungeons and Dragons on Chutes and ladders. To them it is just a brand.. the integrity is gone.
Scott mentioned a site with all the D&D books available for downloads, and that there had been 9,000 downloads. Now, I have no idea how many books were in that bundle, but since he also mentioned that the site was just one of many (50?) he was looking into, well.. That's very quickly quite a few books.
Which is copyright infringement. It is neither theft or piracy.
Theft requires tangible property.
Piracy requires a boat or ship and violence or the threat of violence.
__________________ We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
Never confuse movement with action. - Ernest Hemingway
The fansite policy is being worked on. I was in a planning meeting today and it was being discussed and appropriately prioritized. I have read the draft and my personal opinion is that it looks very good. These will be guidelines and not a treatise on IP law. The fan site policy will not be a replacement for legal advice or common sense.
This doesn't give me a lot of hope that the fansite guidelines will be useful.
Copyright and trademark law means that realistically, many fansites can't help but technically be in violation somehow. The GSL specifically excludes web sites as a possible licensed product. Unless the fansite guidelines (as other company's fansite guidelines do, see White Wolf's or similar) do specify what IP you can use as a fansite, what possible value add do they convey?
Do not derail this thread into Paizo-bashing or cheering, please. Whether you love or dislike Pathfinder, this thread isn't the place for it.
__________________ - Piratecat, EN World Admin
Currently editing the 4e War of the Burning Sky adventure path. Support EN Publishing, get excellent modules!
I am a customer and I feel that the OGL was a bad thing for me as a customer due to the value I lost on non D20 systems.
But even if I disagree with you on this I want to praise you on your excellent analysis about market behaviors in your post Another Cease and Desist Letter: 4E Powercards
I can't dismiss that more D20 means less non-D20 in the market and prior to the OGL I was running/playing exclusively non-D&D systems. Non-D20 games definitely took a hit for a few years. However, I suspect that OGL or D20 supplements might have been the gateway product for some companies that also produced non-D20 products either at the time or later on. You've also got low-cost PDFs for niche products and gamers on a budget that may not have existed without the OGL. The amount of useful material I have now is orders of magnitude greater than what I had pre-OGL.
But most of all I wanted to thank you for the compliment!
WOTC at this point might as well stamp Dungeons and Dragons on Chutes and ladders. To them it is just a brand.. the integrity is gone.
Please. Listen to the guys on the podcast talk passionately about the game, how pleased they are to be working on it, and how proud they are of what they've produced, and tell me there's no integrity there.
__________________ "The last time I ran into myself, I kicked my own ass." Chasing the DM, a blog for DM's like me who really feel they should know what they're doing by now.
For DM's: 4E Dungeon Index (adventures, conversions, and sidetreks by level, last updated 16th Oct. through Dungeon #171).
It's not an "advertisement" when someone steals your work and makes it available for free to anyone. Let's say you spend two years writing a novel, and you finally get it published. I take it, scan it and make the text available for free - with an identical font and cover image - on the iphone app store. Is this an advertisement for your book?
Of course it isn't.
I thought the 4e power card site was cool too, but the guys running it were knowingly breaking the law. No one should be upset that this isn't okay.
Its a good thing enworld has a contract then, otherwise there is numerous IP that can be shut down. If I post my character on a site.. I am violatinig IP. It is possible WOTC could shut that site now.
I think this support of WOTC on these moves are a wee bit too trusting.
4) The current edition of a game makes the best testing ground for the next one. Elements of 4E began to appear in late 3.5 products. Power cards are a good first step in seeing how the format is received by current players.
A players handbook costs around 30$ and I believe not every player buys one for himself. If what D&D players needed to play was some collection or deck of power cards that could cost only 5$ to buy, it is very likely these decks sold 6 times more than PHs do now. At the same time Wotc would probably benefit much more from cutting production expenses. So we could perhaps see in the future some booster packs regarding races, equipment, powers and staff like that. The only downside to this is that games of this sort tend to have a limited life cycle. It relies on the shiny factor and the shiny factor is not a time resistant one. But you are definately right that 4e's design is one towards this direction.
Please. Listen to the guys on the podcast talk passionately about the game, how pleased they are to be working on it, and how proud they are of what they've produced, and tell me there's no integrity there.
Oh comeon, you are going with how pleased they are in a podcast? Have you ever watched actors at movie previews? People will endorse the worst load of crap in the world if they can make money of it. They will even do it with a smile.
Please. Listen to the guys on the podcast talk passionately about the game, how pleased they are to be working on it, and how proud they are of what they've produced, and tell me there's no integrity there.
I do not for ONE MINUTE believe the designers have no integrity. They however are beholden to people that are not ultimately involved in GAMING. To THEM it is a brand name only, and the designers have to work within those parameters.
it is not designers causing the websites to shut down, it is the law offices.
These are not good hands for D&D.
Wait until Hasbro decides it is just easier to make money off of D&D brand name video games. Probably WOn't happen... but it could.
I am not against WOTC as I still buy their Star Wars products, but I will not support $e and I have convinced most of my gaming circle not to support it.
I think this support of WOTC on these moves are a wee bit too trusting.
Fair enough. I disagree, and that's okay, too.
If you're trying to protect your copyright, as you're obligated to do, you look for low-hanging fruit; gross violations are what you target. A site that uses the D&D trade dress and has almost 2000 copy-n-pasted powers? Heck, yes. A fan posting his character? Absolutely not.
__________________ - Piratecat, EN World Admin
Currently editing the 4e War of the Burning Sky adventure path. Support EN Publishing, get excellent modules!
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
