General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
And thus you make my point for me. What does Wizards intend to pursue? Why can't Wizards come out and state it?
Aside from having so much legalese to worry about that it's a slow process? I can think of a couple of reasons:
1) Flexibility - they can go after targets of opportunity rather than deal with the blowback of complains for an unevenly enforced guideline.
2) Loopholes - publishing a set of guidelines, as useful as they might be, also invites scoundrels who intend abuse the spirit of the policy by finding loopholes around the wording.
And to toss in a third: It simply hasn't been a high-enough priority to devote the time.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
And thus you make my point for me. What does Wizards intend to pursue? Why can't Wizards come out and state it?
My best guess would be copyright violations that come to their attention.
When you withdrawl money from an ATM is it your job to turn to the nearest person and say: "Taking this money from me by force, or deception, would be a violation of US law, and I will pusue any abuse through legal action."
Or do you just assume that if they steal from you, you will then call the cops?
Look man, I agree, WoTC would probably be better served creating a fansite policy. I think most people who want to create a fansite for D&D are generally interested in supporting D&D, and want to do so in a legal way. I think Wizards would probably benefit from supporting their fans ability to do so without having to contact a lawyer or soemthing. I was just saying that because someone didn't take action againt something ilegal before doesn't make it legal.
Aside from that I wonder- did either of the shut down sites try to get in touch with Wizards before they opened their electronic doors? Scott Rouse seems like a decent guy pretty open to at least TRYING to point fans in the right direction.
Why not just assume WotC will enforce their rights to the full extent the laws allow? It's what most companies do, and those that don't (Disney frex) usually claim more protection than the law allows in any official IP-infringement policy, which is actually worse for the fans.
2) Loopholes - publishing a set of guidelines, as useful as they might be, also invites scoundrels who intend abuse the spirit of the policy by finding loopholes around the wording.
yea like we have to worry about D&D players abuseing the word of the rule to supercide the spirit of it...where would you dfind such a person...never mind
and to who ever asked me if I was jokeing, yes when I said blame the pirates for the lack of updated GSL I thought I was being funny...darn multi quite not working right...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
Can we honestly believe that no one at WOTC or Hasbro had seen the fansite power cards until Jan 5th? I mean, come on, I've been using the MSE to create power cards since October, and I know that the Power Card thread on this site has been up for much longer than that, and it has links to the very sites that create these files, not to mention jpgs and file downloads of examples.
Please, they are sending out the C&D letters now, because they were never sure if the Power Cards would sell, but now that they see everyone making there own, they want to own the market. Not that I can blame them, but they could have put a stop to this almost 6 months ago. Not now, right before they sell the new power card sets.
Can we honestly believe that no one at WOTC or Hasbro had seen the fansite power cards until Jan 5th? I mean, come on, I've been using the MSE to create power cards since October, and I know that the Power Card thread on this site has been up for much longer than that, and it has links to the very sites that create these files, not to mention jpgs and file downloads of examples.
Please, they are sending out the C&D letters now, because they were never sure if the Power Cards would sell, but now that they see everyone making there own, they want to own the market. Not that I can blame them, but they could have put a stop to this almost 6 months ago. Not now, right before they sell the new power card sets.
Just my 2cents.
Going with Occam's Razor would suggest the Power Cards site was not brought to the attention of the appropriate parties within WotC management until January 5 as that is a far simpler answer than to suggest a wide ranging evil conspiracy.
Can we honestly believe that no one at WOTC or Hasbro had seen the fansite power cards until Jan 5th?
Given that I've been actively playing 4e since last summer and using Power Cards in almost every session and I hadn't heard about the site until this thread, I find it very easy to believe exactly that.
Given that I've been actively playing 4e since last summer and using Power Cards in almost every session and I hadn't heard about the site until this thread, I find it very easy to believe exactly that.
Also, I wouldn't say WoTC (Or any corporate entity) is really "fast" with anything.
For al we know they might have known about it from day one, someone reported it, and it went into some random corporate lawyer guy's "to do" pile. (Probably on top of other less important things such as reveiwing an already released document for changes designed to make people happy, as a favor to an overworked coworker.)
Why not just assume WotC will enforce their rights to the full extent the laws allow? It's what most companies do, and those that don't (Disney frex) usually claim more protection than the law allows in any official IP-infringement policy, which is actually worse for the fans.
Because doing this is silly, since even posting a character you create can, technically, be considered IP infringement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyxox
Going with Occam's Razor would suggest the Power Cards site was not brought to the attention of the appropriate parties within WotC management until January 5 as that is a far simpler answer than to suggest a wide ranging evil conspiracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaerdaph
You know I find it hilarious that WotC is always held up as a business when it suits it's fans, but the minute a detractor suggests they did something most businesses would in a situation... suddenly it's a conspiracy theory... or it's ridiculed... There have been numerous cards with the full text of powers distributed all over the internet.
IMO,as a company concerned with their IP and usage of it, it is more absurd to think WotC was oblivious or didn't notice any of the sets of power cards (with the full text) out there any earlier than January... I mean just the fact that they have multiple presences on this site alone, where links to tons of power cards (with full text) are listed means even the minutest effort would have garnered them this information.
No, it's much more likely that while, perhaps not aware of Ryan's specific site... WotC has been aware of the sets of power cards on the internet and...up to this point...chose not to do anything about them because they helped promote their product and they in turn had nothing to offer their customers. Personally I think this lax attitude up until now, probably led to people like Ryan thinking it was okay to create a website with the power text on them since there are already PDF's & MSE sets with them in it.
SIDE NOTE: As far as "common sense" here's a site that has been up forever for Exalted 2nd edition... on the site are the Charm Cards for Solar Exalted, Dragon-Blooded Exalts and Lunar Exalts. That's all the powers from 3 different books, along with great character sheets and rule cheat sheets... yet for years there have been no C&D's from WW for the site to take the cards down. I'm assuming, perhaps mistakenly, that WW recognizes sites like these help promote their game and cultivate the "hobby" aspect as well.
Because doing this is silly, since even posting a character you create can, technically, be considered IP infringement.
I'm not convinced that is correct.
__________________ All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re not unreasonable; I mean, no one’s gonna eat your eyes
All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re at an impasse here; maybe we should compromise:
If you open up the doors
We’ll all come inside and eat your brains
SIDE NOTE: As far as "common sense" here's a site that has been up forever for Exalted 2nd edition... on the site are the Charm Cards for Solar Exalted, Dragon-Blooded Exalts and Lunar Exalts. That's all the powers from 3 different books, along with great character sheets and rule cheat sheets... yet for years there have been no C&D's from WW for the site to take the cards down. I'm assuming, perhaps mistakenly, that WW recognizes sites like these help promote their game and cultivate the "hobby" aspect as well.
That is a good point, even though I usually don't go for "well they did it, so it must be okay" argument. But I agree.
An earlier poster, Clatsclaw I believe, was replying to Azigoth and made the point that PowerCards could somehow be used in a manner which would allow people to play the game without actually buying it. Much like the old SRD could.. to an extent.
But that's not very realistic in this case, and the Exalted Charm Cards are a good example.
It's really extreme to think that people are going to Reverse Engineer the 4E game system from Power Cards alone. I realize that prior to Core Rules release last year that fans did do a lot of that sort of stuff with the Shadowfell quickstart rules, but with the books readily available now- its a different situation.
Let me use a metaphor using auto parts.
The Manufacturers and Sellers of auto parts protect their products from theft because-
1.) It costs money to produce them
2.) They want to sell them.
I guess you could argue-
3.) Some guy could theoretically cobble them all together into a real working car! And then not buy a car!
Yeah, it could happen. But I don't see that as the overriding concern for why auto parts stores protect their inventory. If you're going to rip off a car, you're going to rip off a car. You're not going to do it by swiping spark plugs and hubcaps.
And to step through the metaphor.. If you're going to pirate a game rulebook, you're going to pirate a game rulebook. Not Power Cards.
If as a vendor you're going to sell Power Cards, you're going to want to make sure no one gives Power Cards away for free.
NOW.....
As I have said before, WOTC is completely within their rights. No argument. No complaint.
(And lest someone is skimming this post, I in no way advocate piracy!)
But let us not make up reasons for why they're doing this. WOTC is doing it because it is their property and they want to sell it. That argument needs no further embellishment.
They want to sell Power Cards.
White Wolf was not interested in doing that, so they could see how the free Charm Cards made their books easier to use, and how they added value to their game system.
__________________ Here's your first clue: I'm watching you!
Last edited by Admiral Caine; 20th February 2009 at 11:11 PM..
Reason: spelling, grammer, clarification
Because doing this is silly, since even posting a character you create can, technically, be considered IP infringement.
What facts do you have to back that up? Each WotC book has a copyright statement at the front that clearly tells people they aren't supposed to reproduce the material contained inside. I can find no evidence that WotC has ever made a similar public statement claiming it violates their copyright to create a character based on their rules and post it to the web.
What facts do you have to back that up? Each WotC book has a copyright statement at the front that clearly tells people they aren't supposed to reproduce the material contained inside. I can find no evidence that WotC has ever made a similar public statement claiming it violates their copyright to create a character based on their rules and post it to the web.
I'm not an IP lawyer... so I can't answer this in a definite, but if we are assuming WotC is enforcing their IP and trademarks to the fullest extent... Here's a few questions I honestly am not sure about...
1. Are the names of Paragon Paths their IP? If so I can't use these...even though every character eventually takes one.
2. If my character is from the Forgotten Realms, and his backstory uses elements from that campaign setting, am I using WotC's IP when I write it up?
3. Aren't the specific names of powers WotC's IP? So how do I list what powers my character has?
4. Are the names of specific magic items in their books IP?
5. Are the specific names of feats their IP?
Anyway these are just a few of the extremes, off the top of my head, that can arise when taking it to the level of WotC enforcing it to their fullest extent.
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
What facts do you have to back that up? Each WotC book has a copyright statement at the front that clearly tells people they aren't supposed to reproduce the material contained inside. I can find no evidence that WotC has ever made a similar public statement claiming it violates their copyright to create a character based on their rules and post it to the web.
Actually it would be. Depending. If you use a "character sheet" created by WOTC? Yes, it would be a violation, we only have permission "for personal use only", publishing it on the WWW with uncontrolled distribution is not "personal use only".
Also, even if you create your own character sheet format, you still need to be sure not to use any terms WOTC has covered by copyright, otherwise you will still be in violation of copyright.
You can likely successfully argue "Fair use" when your distributing it among your friends with whom you game, but when you put it up on the WWW its no longer "fair use" or "personal use", so your then flirting with copyright violations.
So if you put a sheet up on a private website, or via a private chat board, your probably fine with "Fair" and "personal" usage, but when you put things up to where anyone can use it? Your going beyond the scope of "Fair Use" as well as "personal use".
Even private chat boards don't fully protect you, thats because when you go beyond a certain number of people you arguably become a club, or similar "public" entity, and WOTC could go after you then as well.
DISCLAIMER: No, I am not a lawyer, and am in no way offering "legal advice".
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
In general lists of things are not copyrightable, though the specific order might be. The other thing is that forms are made to be filled out, so posting an example character sheet should be safe. that is, clearly the intent of the phb is to teach someone to create a character, so doing so for personal use is a legitimate use of the phb.
Writing a background might be problematic, I'll grant that.
__________________ All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re not unreasonable; I mean, no one’s gonna eat your eyes
All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re at an impasse here; maybe we should compromise:
If you open up the doors
We’ll all come inside and eat your brains
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (TDY in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
Posts: 1,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mournblade94
...Anecdotal only I understand, but this makes me convinced 4e is not the master of the market place.
I almost completely agree with you. I'd say that right now, 4E is probably master of the market as far as RPGs go, but not necessarily master of the gametable.
No matter how much people want to spin it, whether fans for or against, or WoTC themself, if 4E can't become entrenched as the game of choice for a majority of players, for actual play at the gametable, 4E will not succeed. I personally think 4E's success is far from decided. Time will tell, but I think it's still in the balance, and could go either way.
Even if sales right now show 4E as king, if it doesn't become master of the gametable, that will not remain true.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
Originally Posted by mxyzplk
Why can't Wizards come out and state it?
They do not have to come out an state anything regarding their IP and intent to protect it. Copyright Law is immediately enacted the minute they put pen to paper.
Regarding the character sheet analogy.
1) Wizards would easily be able to defend Copyright Infringement if you printed your character sheet with complete power card write ups, and full explanations of all your feats to a public medium such as a website.
2) They allow reproduction of the character sheet as stated in their manuals for personal use. This does not include you putting it on a public website since it then becomes public use.
3) It might be harder for them to contest a character sheet that showed no mechanics (how to use the sheet, how your AC was derived, etc) and listed only the power names and types. Since these would not be enough to reverse engineer their game system.
D
__________________ My two cents worth, which at today's conversion rates amounts to nothing.
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (TDY in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
Posts: 1,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Jester
The problem is that if WotC doesn't defend their trademarks now, they cannot defend them later. There is a principle in law that amounts to, "You let me do it before, you can't start complaining now"- WotC simply doesn't have the option to ignore known large-scale infringement.
Defending their trademarks only applies toward logos and such being used on the site. Definitely something worth defending, but only a portion of what was involved.
Verbatim text is Copyright material, not Trademark material. You do not lose the right to defend your copyright if you don't pursue those violating it. With Trademarks you can. AFAIK, even if WoTC let the site continue to use Copyright material for an extended period of time, and knew about it, they could at anytime decide to exercise their rights under copyright law.
Trademark and Copyright are two very different and distinct things.
Logos and such are Trademark. Creative works such as text from a book are Copyright.
edit: Ooops! I see that RedBeardJim already brought up this point. My Bad!
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
What i learned from this thread:
- Putting 1800 power cards on the internet helps to cultivate the hobby, whatever that means.
- Master of the Gametable is not a substitude phrase for DM.
- There are still people out there typing stuff like "$e" to fight the man.
__________________ C4bal: We´re watching your dicerolls.
X-Zine - the German review & news site for RPGs / books / comics / music / CCG / DVDs and much much more
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
