Another Cease and Desist Letter: 4E Powercards

[Imaro]

So, after thinking on this some more I went and pulled out the cards I had printed off this site... now unless I am totally mistaken about this being the same site I used, the cards used the style and format that Ander00 used for his cards... this...



I don't see any trademarks, the Dungeons & Dragons name... or even the exact format that was used in the PHB's... though it does use all of the text.

Honestly I just don't see how you can use these to play D&D 4e without the books. It also gives a little more insight into why the creator may have thought he was ok in using these on his website... They've been circulating on the net almost since 4e was first released. In fact the only thing his website did was allow one to construct a personalized deck with just the needed cards for your character and print it out.

[dvvega]

@Imaro

I don't think you are "getting" it. WOTC is defending its copyright ... that is the text on that power card is their material. No one has a right to copy that text verbatim and make it publicly available except for WOTC themselves. In the case of copyright verbatim is a little flexible as well, so "clever" people who change one or two words are not going to get away with it.

[Admiral Caine]

Originally Posted by Imaro

Honestly I just don't see how you can use these to play D&D 4e without the books.

You can't.

Some guy in this thread claims he knows that the makers of these websites know that they're breaking the law.

...But he can't read minds or ascertain the thought and motives of others.

This is all about money.

WOTC wants to sell these for ten bucks per character class, or a DDI subscription.

And it is their legal right to contest giving cards away for free. (Or, at the risk of being corrected by the pedantic- it is also their right to challenge anybody besides themselves selling 4E Power Cards taken from their books)

But that's it in a nutshell. Any more grandiose talk is just talk.

[dm4hire]

Actually I don't think that was the problem Imaro. The real problem was that via the website a person had access to all of the powers published by WotC. Passing around a few power cards as were done at the start by Ander00 really isn't a big deal compared to full access to the material the website was offering. Though I have seen pdfs of everything floating around as mentioned. Kind of hard to stop a file from floating around versus a full website that infringes the content. That I can understand despite not really liking the stance. I would have perfered WotC taking a different approach, but to be honest I really can't think of anything outside of what I already mentioned.

In reference to my suggestion about the letter earlier I was simply indicating that by doing it my way WotC would in a sense be providing a grace period which would allow the website to shutdown in a manner that would at least appease the fans. Instead the C&D requires immediate action, though their C&D is really a form of DRM so the website could have continued until ordered by court, but faces a heavier fine if proven wrong. As with the previous C&D discussed there were fans upset because they had material saved that, though against copyright, was technically theirs with the right to access it and should have been given the opportunity to at least retrieve it. In effect they created character sheets, or in the new case power cards, which are by products the same as if we sat at a table and created a character or wrote down the powers on a sheet of paper. The grace period would in effect be telling the fans "Hey, we screwed up, but it's not your fault. We can't let you create anything new, but you can take what you've already done with you." The fans might be upset they can't make anything new, but they won't be PO'd that they lost everything which was the case for some of the fans for those sites. Course if the new site was making PDFs for download then there would be nothing be saved on it most likely so their immediate shutdown is iffy, though giving them a few days to close shop would have been a nice gesture. As I've mentioned fans will still go out and buy the official product regardless.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

You can't.

Some guy in this thread claims he knows that the makers of these websites know that they're breaking the law.

...But he can't read minds or ascertain the thought and motives of others.

This is all about money.

WOTC wants to sell these for ten bucks per character class, or a DDI subscription.

And it is their legal right to contest giving cards away for free. (Or, at the risk of being corrected by the pedantic- it is also their right to challenge anybody besides themselves selling 4E Power Cards taken from their books)

But that's it in a nutshell. Any more grandiose talk is just talk.

If you are referring to my comment 2 pages back, please try to at least get it right.

Originally Posted by Jack99

I doubt any of the two owners of the websites who have been taken down did not know they were breaking laws.

That's hardly the same as "claiming" to "know" anything. It's called an educated guess.

[Admiral Caine]

It was a paraphrase Jack, not a quote.

Jeez.. I am so shocked that you're actually trying to make an issue of this that I read your quote four times now. I actually for a moment thought I had made a mistake, and I apologized to you. Then I had to read it again and edit it back out. Amazing. Good job.

But you're splitting hairs. Really. I say potato, you say pot-tot-toe.

[Wimwick]

It's too bad that a fan site got shut down, especially when they are only trying to help the community.

While I respect WotC for enforcing their product and IP, I wonder how many copies of their Power Card book they will sell. I won't be buying it. I subscribe to DDI and get power cards included with the Character Builder. For that matter I get power cards for books that aren't even out yet. For me the digitial initiative is the way to go.

[the Jester]

Re: Copyright vs. Trademark: I know the difference, that's why I specified trademarks in my post above. Things like the logo were all over those cards (or so I hear).

Originally Posted by Imaro

No, it's much more likely that while, perhaps not aware of Ryan's specific site... WotC has been aware of the sets of power cards on the internet and...up to this point...chose not to do anything about them because they helped promote their product and they in turn had nothing to offer their customers. Personally I think this lax attitude up until now, probably led to people like Ryan thinking it was okay to create a website with the power text on them since there are already PDF's & MSE sets with them in it.

Right- WotC very well may have said, "Huh, this kid's got five power cards posted on his web site. That's cool- that will help promote the game, but it doesn't do it by posting wholesale chapters of the PH." Then, when they found someone who was posting wholesale chapters of the PH, they said, "WHOAH!! NOT COOL!!"

Just because they gave someone an inch doesn't mean that anyone else can get away with a mile.

I understand that it's "bad for the fans" if WotC defends its intellectual property. Heck, I wish all the awesome d&d gravy was free too. I'd never miss a supplement then! But, wait- how would the Rouse, mearls, Mr. Cordell and all the rest get paid?? Sometimes "bad for the fans" means the business keeps going.

[Xyxox]

Originally Posted by Imaro

You know I find it hilarious that WotC is always held up as a business when it suits it's fans, but the minute a detractor suggests they did something most businesses would in a situation... suddenly it's a conspiracy theory... or it's ridiculed... There have been numerous cards with the full text of powers distributed all over the internet.

IMO,as a company concerned with their IP and usage of it, it is more absurd to think WotC was oblivious or didn't notice any of the sets of power cards (with the full text) out there any earlier than January... I mean just the fact that they have multiple presences on this site alone, where links to tons of power cards (with full text) are listed means even the minutest effort would have garnered them this information.

No, it's much more likely that while, perhaps not aware of Ryan's specific site... WotC has been aware of the sets of power cards on the internet and...up to this point...chose not to do anything about them because they helped promote their product and they in turn had nothing to offer their customers. Personally I think this lax attitude up until now, probably led to people like Ryan thinking it was okay to create a website with the power text on them since there are already PDF's & MSE sets with them in it.

SIDE NOTE: As far as "common sense" here's a site that has been up forever for Exalted 2nd edition... on the site are the Charm Cards for Solar Exalted, Dragon-Blooded Exalts and Lunar Exalts. That's all the powers from 3 different books, along with great character sheets and rule cheat sheets... yet for years there have been no C&D's from WW for the site to take the cards down. I'm assuming, perhaps mistakenly, that WW recognizes sites like these help promote their game and cultivate the "hobby" aspect as well.

exalted sheets

What you suggest is not an activity any legitimate business would engage in as doing so would put their IP at risk.

I say this as an employee of a company that as the sole source of its revenue, produces IP. We, as a comapny, are aware our IP is pirated because all IP companies have their IP pirated. We do not know of specific sites, but when discovered, we ahve them shut down.\

So again, you are engaging in conspiracy theories.

[Shadowsong666]

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

You can't.
This is all about money.

Thats really all its about.
If they could, they would disallow letting someone else read the books you purchased.

But well, we all have a social desire for sharing. So we all just spend some and get everything. Group hugs!

[jmucchiello]

Wow, am I out of the loop! Can someone point me at the discussion for the first site sent a C&D, I missed that discussion entirely?

I'm shocked it took until page 7 of this thread for someone to lament that WotC didn't put this guy on the payroll. That was my immediate reaction to the idea. Yeah, not really possible in a company with standard corporate structure but this site (which I never saw) sounds like it was a mean feat of software engineering.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by the Jester

Re: Copyright vs. Trademark: I know the difference, that's why I specified trademarks in my post above. Things like the logo were all over those cards (or so I hear).

So you did.

[Beginning of the End]

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

So, by extension of this position, you would agree that all Power Cards not made by WOTC (or made 100% entirely by the individual for their own sole personal use) is a violation WOTC's rights?

For personal use? No.

But if by "power card" you mean "a card that duplicates both the name of the power and the text describing the mechanics of that power" then, yeah, that's an open-and-shut copyright violation.

Attempts to rewrite the text describing the mechanics is a legally gray area, but is still going to get you whacked with a C&D because Wizards, like TSR before it, believes that there is a significant and protected non-mechanical creative expression inherent in most RPG mechanics. (You can't copyright mechanics. But you also can't mechanically describe a beholder without violating the copyright protecting the concept of a beholder.)

Are they right? Maybe. I'd even say probably. But there's no legal precedent.

And in any case, it's irrelevant in this case because, in this case, the text is being replicated. And that, as I say, is an open-and-shut copyright violation.

[Ourph]

Originally Posted by Treebore

Actually it would be. Depending. If you use a "character sheet" created by WOTC? Yes, it would be a violation, we only have permission "for personal use only", publishing it on the WWW with uncontrolled distribution is not "personal use only".

So don't do that.

Also, even if you create your own character sheet format, you still need to be sure not to use any terms WOTC has covered by copyright, otherwise you will still be in violation of copyright.

"Terms" (i.e. individual words or phrases like "Armor Class", "Reflex", "Healing Surge", "Hit and Run" or "Riposte Strike") aren't copyright protected and it's perfectly acceptable to post those to a public internet page as part of a character sheet. You shouldn't redistribute the entire text for each power verbatim, but listing the names isn't violating any copyrights.

[dm4hire]

The only problem is that D&D falls under game and therefore under the copyright laws for games you cannot copyright mechanics, only content built around it. Which is why just about every fantasy game out there has Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Humans, and what not for races and classes such as fighter, ranger, barbarian, and so on despite being OGL or completely outside it. So your example of rephrasing is actually legal to some extent if it relates to mechanics which power cards actually are.

The C&D is totally related to the whole content being copied completely for more than just a few powers and from what has been mentioned also the use of other items that most likely were covered by Trademark. Trademark being a whole other ballgame as discussed.

[Elephant]

Huh. Someone likes 4e and puts up some nifty power cards to help make the game run more smoothly for people.

In response to this enthusiasm on the part of their customers, WOTC slaps 'em with a C&D, in effect saying "BAD fan! You're not allowed to add to the fun!"

Way to go, guys.

[Kit Cloudkicker]

Originally Posted by avin

I saw that coming from miles.

Wotc is going to sell their own power cards.

And make a mint doing it. This really effing annoys me.

[Dannager]

This post has been reworded by a moderator to be less insulting. Don't put words in peoples mouths. Thank you.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

It was a paraphrase Jack, not a quote.

Jeez.. I am so shocked that you're actually trying to make an issue of this that I read your quote four times now. I actually for a moment thought I had made a mistake, and I apologized to you. Then I had to read it again and edit it back out. Amazing. Good job.

But you're splitting hairs. Really. I say potato, you say pot-tot-toe.

I am that good. No seriously, you might be right. It was late when I posted and it's been a long week. Re-reading it now, I have to agree that I might have been splitting hairs. Your rewrite of what I said was not that far from what I meant.

Cheers

[Imaro]

Originally Posted by Xyxox

What you suggest is not an activity any legitimate business would engage in as doing so would put their IP at risk.

I say this as an employee of a company that as the sole source of its revenue, produces IP. We, as a comapny, are aware our IP is pirated because all IP companies have their IP pirated. We do not know of specific sites, but when discovered, we ahve them shut down.

So again, you are engaging in conspiracy theories.

So even though, through a simple google search you can find tons of sites with power cards that contain full text and descriptions... In fact just browsing these forums turns up plenty... you honestly believe a company like WotC since 4e was released hasn't done this... even though they were aware of their core books being put up on torrent sites before the books were even released?

Yeah it's easy to throw that "conspiracy" word around when you want to discredit an argument but don't have anything substantial to back it up with except... anecdotal evidence that doesn't even relate directly to WotC. Yeah whatever, you've really revealed the "conspiracy" for what it is...