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Although it might compete with their own power card products...
This was the type of service Wizards should offer as part of DDI. Power card generator bonus tool. Some will want the fancy printed product, while others would want the convenience... similar to print or PDF.
I'd like them to finish the dungeon builder so I could premake maps and/or use my dungeon tiles... choice of convenience or fancy product.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
The power card template is part of the GSL SRD and is ok to use as it is presented in the SRD.*
*Note your product must be compliant with other aspects of the GSL
Okay, so it's part of your SRD. But isn't a blank power card basically just a blank form? Whether you guys make it part of your SRD or not, can it really be considered protected material?
If a blank card contained copyrighted text or terms, then I could see it, but a blank template that doesn't contain these things is just a blank form. How can it be restricted?
Now if someone has signed the GSL, then they have agreed to those terms. But, I don't see how someone who hasn't signed the GSL could be restricted as long as they don't violate copyright?
edit: p.s.(that seems like a good reason not to sign the GSL, but that's just my opinion)
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
So... I have reported some news. Make of it what you will. I'll kindly excuse myself from the rest of the thread.
Hey my apologies if you felt I was attacking you in some way. I wasn't trying to in any way shape or form.
I was just trying to make conversation, about what I saw as a similar concept, and how one seems clearly to be wrong, but the other seems to have more leway in people's minds for some reason. That's all. Nothing specifically against anything you said!
Okay, so it's part of your SRD. But isn't a blank power card basically just a blank form? Whether you guys make it part of your SRD or not, can it really be considered protected material?
If a blank card contained copyrighted text or terms, then I could see it, but a blank template that doesn't contain these things is just a blank form. How can it be restricted?
Now if someone has signed the GSL, then they have agreed to those terms. But, I don't see how someone who hasn't signed the GSL could be restricted as long as they don't violate copyright?
IANAL so this is beyond my scope.
I was simply pointing out that Urizen can use terms, tables, and templates as part of the GSL to make original powers in a 3pp book and does not need to get another opinion.
__________________ Scott Rouse
Last edited by Scott_Rouse; 19th February 2009 at 10:17 PM..
The power card template is part of the GSL SRD and is ok to use as it is presented in the SRD.*
*Note your product must be compliant with other aspects of the GSL
Quote:
3. Licensed Products. The license granted in Section 4 is for use solely in connection with Licensee’s publication, distribution, and sale of roleplaying games and roleplaying game supplements that contain the Licensed Materials and are published in a hardcover or soft-cover printed book format or in a single-download electronic book format (such as .pdf), and accessory products to the foregoing roleplaying games and roleplaying game supplements that are not otherwise listed as excluded in Section 5.5 (“Licensed Products”).
(. . .)
5.5 Licensed Products. This License applies solely to Licensed Products as defined in Section 3 and to the specified uses set forth in Section 4. For the avoidance of doubt, and by way of example only, no Licensed Product will (a) include web sites, interactive products, miniatures, or character creators; (b) describe a process for creating a character or applying the effects of experience to a character; (c) use the terms “Core Rules” or “Core Rulebook” or variations thereof on its cover or title, in self-reference or in advertising or marketing thereof; (d) refer to any artwork, imagery or other depiction contained in a Core Rulebook; (e) reprint any material contained in a Core Rulebook except as explicitly provided in Section 4; or (f) be incorporated into another product that is itself not a Licensed Product (such as, by way of example only, a magazine or book compilation).
Without the fansite policy, the only way to not violate the license would seemingly be to create a pdf and allow it to be downloaded but not as a page on the website (though those portions seem potentially contradictory).
WotC's move isn't at all surprising to me, based on their similar behavior in the past. It still makes me mad, though -- regardless of the "legalities" of it (which were all made into law by the urging of the lobbying businesses like Hasbro over the decades). Anyway....
What's annoying is that unless someone has pirated copies of the rules and hasn't in any way compensated WotC for playing 4e, there just isn't any harm in using a site like 4E Powercards. You need WotC's products to make use of it in the first place. It only enhances something that WotC makes money off. I bought and paid for the books (even though their business practices make that morally harder and harder to do), and that site was useful to me. As I think on it, I am not exaggerating when I say that 4E Powercards added value to the game for me.
I have to wonder if the perceived "value" WotC gets out of this "market research" is really worth it when stacked against their legal department's expenses and the cost in customer goodwill. Sigh.
Although it might compete with their own power card products...
This was the type of service Wizards should offer as part of DDI. Power card generator bonus tool. Some will want the fancy printed product, while others would want the convenience... similar to print or PDF.
The Character Builder will print out sheets of power cards as part of the character sheet. All your powers and items with the math done for you.
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (TDY in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
Posts: 1,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
IANAL so this is beyond my scope.
I was simply pointing out that Urizen can use terms, tables, and templates as part of the GSL to make original powers in a 3pp book and does not need to get another opinion.
Roger that. Not trying to start an argument. If I came across that way I apologize. I was just seeking clarification (from you and our resident legal "experts"). Thanks though, for your clarification.
Keep up the "Good Fight", Scott.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
Hey my apologies if you felt I was attacking you in some way. I wasn't trying to in any way shape or form.
I was just trying to make conversation, about what I saw as a similar concept, and how one seems clearly to be wrong, but the other seems to have more leway in people's minds for some reason. That's all. Nothing specifically against anything you said!
You're right Scribble. You didn't do any of that. I was seeing a trend in some of the other posts. No worries. We're cool.
__________________ Here's your first clue: I'm watching you!
WotC's move isn't at all surprising to me, based on their similar behavior in the past. It still makes me mad, though -- regardless of the "legalities" of it (which were all made into law by the urging of the lobbying businesses like Hasbro over the decades). Anyway....
I wonder how Joe Goodman would feel if I took some of his books or adventures, cut out the encounters and then posted them online as "FREE 4E ENCOUNTER AREAS!" or as Delves. Or taking his new monster book and posting his monsters online in my own 4e monster wiki.
I imagine he would be pretty angry, and interestingly, I am guessing that the community would rally around him in anger at me for doing it.
Sorta double-standard, dont'cha think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azigoth
What's annoying is that unless someone has pirated copies of the rules and hasn't in any way compensated WotC for playing 4e, there just isn't any harm in using a site like 4E Powercards. You need WotC's products to make use of it in the first place. It only enhances something that WotC makes money off. I bought and paid for the books (even though their business practices make that morally harder and harder to do), and that site was useful to me. As I think on it, I am not exaggerating when I say that 4E Powercards added value to the game for me.
Well, if I can just download the power cards from a fan-site, why do I need the PHB for power text and descriptions?
I wouldn't necessarily say that 4E Powercards added value for WOTC. If anything, they made it easier for a group to share a PHB and then just download power cards for use during gameday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azigoth
I have to wonder if the perceived "value" WotC gets out of this "market research" is really worth it when stacked against their legal department's expenses and the cost in customer goodwill. Sigh.
It isn't "market research". WOTC has talked about putting out power cards for a long time, well before 4epowercards came online. And the product is due to be released in less than a month. Heck, I imagine that the product was listed in a trade catalog months and months ago.
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16 (with customized, personalized sig from Monte. Awesomesauce.), Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37 (Another Awesomesauce, the Necromancer way.)
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Characters & Games
Books currently in play: Dungeon & Dragon Magazine (*Scales of War AP*), WOTC 4e Core and Supplemental books
Current Campaign: Scales of War - Lost Mines of Karak -- Kodirgo, Minotaur Barbarian 6; Vondal, Dwarf Cleric 6; Karithul, Gnome Bard 6; Marshaun, Elf Druid 6
ANything to actually back it up with numbers, or is it going to be an hysterical throw away line?
Anything to quanitfy how much?
As baseline here, roughly 80-90% of pc game installs are pirated. FOr backup to this claims, there are links off this page.
So the short answer is if piracy rates amongst gamers is anywhere near as high as that, and my experience is that that is a distinct possibility, WOTC are loosing a bucketload of sales.
Even discounting those players who wouldn't buy the books anyway and only counting those who aren't buying the books/ddi subscriptions because it is easy enough to find pirated copies WOTC and other gaming companies must be taking a large hit in sales.
Bummer! Thanks for the great cards you put out for all of us to use. It made the game much easier to play and WOTC should thank you. BTW, I have bought all my books.
Last edited by Tarrl; 19th February 2009 at 11:22 PM..
Well, regardless of legality or not, I can say that I'm enjoying 4e less and less with each gaming session. And, I'm liking WotC less and less with each one of these news items I read.
Bummer! Thanks for the great cards you put out for all of us to use. It made the game much easier to play and WOTC should thank you. BTW, I have bought all my books.
Yes, but will you buy the power cards when they are released?
WotC's move isn't at all surprising to me, based on their similar behavior in the past. It still makes me mad, though -- regardless of the "legalities" of it (which were all made into law by the urging of the lobbying businesses like Hasbro over the decades). Anyway....
Copyright laws have been around since before America existed as an independant nation never mind Hasbro.
Yes, but will you buy the power cards when they are released?
I love the fact that the ddi character builder fills these out for you. You know, on that wotc survey, there were two questions near the end - "Do you trust WotC to deliver quality electronic products" and "do you trust WotC to deliver electronic products in a timely manner?" My answer on both of these was "No." The character builder is a notable exception that is doing almost everything right.
I'll echo the folks who said that sites like the ones taken down, even excellent ones, had to come down. Copy and pasting powers isn't okay.
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I love the fact that the ddi character builder fills these out for you. You know, on that wotc survey, there were two questions near the end - "Do you trust WotC to deliver quality electronic products" and "do you trust WotC to deliver electronic products in a timely manner?" My answer on both of these was "No." The character builder is a notable exception that is doing almost everything right.
I'll echo the folks who said that sites like the ones taken down, even excellent ones, had to come down. Copy and pasting powers isn't okay.
Actually, you need to double check those. One of the people in my gaming group built his character using the character builder and found that it didn't always include all of the bonuses from his magic items and some feats into his powers. That's one of reasons why I clicked 'No' to both of those answers too.
). Thanks though, for your clarification.
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