General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Sometimes you lean too far out of the window. That site had fallen out of the window and was halfway on its way to the street. Sorry, but: giving people the means to create their own power cards: yes. Create some general powercards: yes. Fill up loads of cards with PHB content and allow people to download it? Hell, no.
I wrote my players a mail a couple of weeks ago, linking to the site: "hey, grab a card if you lack one. That site is going to be closed down with a C&D." You really saw it coming.
__________________ C4bal: We´re watching your dicerolls.
X-Zine - the German review & news site for RPGs / books / comics / music / CCG / DVDs and much much more
ANything to actually back it up with numbers, or is it going to be an hysterical throw away line?
It's probably accurate*, given how prevalent such pirated material is on file sharing networks. The question I would ask though, is if the people downloading such material would have purchased it in the first place, or if they're really using it to the same extent as someone who bought the book (pdf collecting and so on).
*But I think 4e induced market splintering is probably an order of magnitude more of a problem for WotC
__________________ "I can just see the 4e adventure anthology "Tale from the Limited Staircase"." - Ken Marable
As baseline here, roughly 80-90% of pc game installs are pirated. FOr backup to this claims, there are links off this page.
So the short answer is if piracy rates amongst gamers is anywhere near as high as that, and my experience is that that is a distinct possibility, WOTC are loosing a bucketload of sales.
Even discounting those players who wouldn't buy the books anyway and only counting those who aren't buying the books/ddi subscriptions because it is easy enough to find pirated copies WOTC and other gaming companies must be taking a large hit in sales.
Phaezen
The base line is meaningless. PC games are not paper and pencil games.
So, when asked if you have any numbers on WOTC piracy theft, I get PC thefts and told its similar? You dont actually HAVE any numbers, just retoric that its rampant?
So again, any numbers on actualy RPG piracy theft?
Dont get me wrong, I have no doubts it happens, piracy. But if you going to throw around "lots of loss is happening!!!!*, numbers are going to have to come into play.
It's probably accurate*, given how prevalent such pirated material is on file sharing networks. The question I would ask though, is if the people downloading such material would have purchased it in the first place, or if they're really using it to the same extent as someone who bought the book (pdf collecting and so on).
*But I think 4e induced market splintering is probably an order of magnitude more of a problem for WotC
I think thats a much better headache for WOTC too, in teh long run. Good call.
Not really. You admit it is an educated guess. Actually coming up with anything close to an accurate number for the effect of internet piracy is an exercise in futility; you could I guess show how many times the PHB and the like have been downloaded through the most popular sites but it is impossible to cross out people who bought and downloaded, or even people who bought after (and because) they downloaded and liked it. We still know for a fact that WotC considers pirated content a priority since the Rouse said at some point past that they were collecting information on this very issue so I guess their market research indicates so. And honestly, asking for hard numbers on a general discussion is a weak debate strategy
As for the argument that bad PR causes the market splintering, that I think is just a frail trail of reasoning. Every single edition change has caused market splintering, and 3E was very popular, very public and with a massive number of sourcebooks. I am fairly certain noone skipped 4E primarily because of "bad PR" but rather because they felt a previous or alternate version was a better fit. Bad PR is more of a secondary argument to add to the heap of an edition war.
They were complete powercards based upon the PHB. It had a rather neat functionality: You could "build" a deck of power cards by selecting just the ones you needed. The site would then generate a document that would allow you to print out the power cards you had specifically selected.
I am neither approving or condemning, but as far as design, layout, and function, it was a pretty neat site.
Isn't that exactly what the character builder does? I know I select my powers and print out power cards based on those selected, including the correct bonuses already precalculated. Those cards as you describe are in direct competition of that feature and I believe WoTC did the right thing to protect it's IP here.
The base line is meaningless. PC games are not paper and pencil games.
So, when asked if you have any numbers on WOTC piracy theft, I get PC thefts and told its similar? You dont actually HAVE any numbers, just retoric that its rampant?
So again, any numbers on actualy RPG piracy theft?
Dont get me wrong, I have no doubts it happens, piracy. But if you going to throw around "lots of loss is happening!!!!*, numbers are going to have to come into play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmachu
I think thats a much better headache for WOTC too, in teh long run. Good call.
So Phaezen can't make a statement without providing proof, but it's okay when Shemeska does it? Seems like a double standard to me. Do you happen to have any proof of this alleged splintering?
__________________
360 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 22nd level Musings of an Epic Virgin
Well I think it's within WotC's rights to send a C&D but it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. If the Insider tools had been ready when 4e was first released, like promised, then I probably wouldn't feel this way, but DDI wasn't.
The funny thing is that one of the touted features of 4e by it's proponents was how they never, or rarely, had to reference the rulebook because of power cards... did WotC facilitate this? No, it was fans of the game.
I find it a tad shady that WotC were more than willing to let these fans do the grunt work while they pulled their own stuff together, but now that there is profit to be made and, a year later, they've finally started to push their own stuff out it's time to push everyone else who promoted 4e through unpaid labor, but might cut into their possible profits, to the side. Eh, I understand it from a business PoV but not sure I really like it personally.
Hey, just another reason I like SWSE more...PDF printable force cards are free.
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
What's annoying is that unless someone has pirated copies of the rules and hasn't in any way compensated WotC for playing 4e, there just isn't any harm in using a site like 4E Powercards. You need WotC's products to make use of it in the first place. It only enhances something that WotC makes money off. I bought and paid for the books (even though their business practices make that morally harder and harder to do), and that site was useful to me. As I think on it, I am not exaggerating when I say that 4E Powercards added value to the game for me.
I have to say I find wisdom in these words, and in the opinions both expressed and hinted at by Admiral Caine. Was WotC within their legal rights to close down the site? Absolutely. Did they wait until they had a competing product coming to market / on the market to do it? Yes. Was this timing intentional? I don't know. Was this bad PR? Maybe. But most importantly: did 4epowercards.com ultimately hurt WotC's business or help it? Well, I have my opinion, and WotC clearly has theirs, and I doubt either one of us could prove anything either way. At the end of the day, it's a shame, however obvious it might have been.
As far as the site receiving the letter that's too bad. I'm sure you worked very hard to get everything up and running smoothly and it was enjoyed by all of your users. I wished I would have checked it out myself.
That being said, people shouldn't complain too loudly because anyone can buy a pack of 3 X 5's and make their own custom power cards. Arts and Crafts Rule.
Well I think it's within WotC's rights to send a C&D but it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. If the Insider tools had been ready when 4e was first released, like promised, then I probably wouldn't feel this way, but DDI wasn't.
The funny thing is that one of the touted features of 4e by it's proponents was how they never, or rarely, had to reference the rulebook because of power cards... did WotC facilitate this? No, it was fans of the game.
I find it a tad shady that WotC were more than willing to let these fans do the grunt work while they pulled their own stuff together, but now that there is profit to be made and, a year later, they've finally started to push their own stuff out it's time to push everyone else who promoted 4e through unpaid labor, but might cut into their possible profits, to the side. Eh, I understand it from a business PoV but not sure I really like it personally.
Hey, just another reason I like SWSE more...PDF printable force cards are free.
So Phaezen can't make a statement without providing proof, but it's okay when Shemeska does it? Seems like a double standard to me. Do you happen to have any proof of this alleged splintering?
One could point out a variety of evidence, from a vocal outcry, to the crappy GSL, Paizo's salkes increase monthly from the announcement of 4e, to the sellout of Pathfinder as a strong indicator of alleged splintering.
How big? I could not oin down a actual percentage, and its probably small, but its there.
But since your pretty strong in your conviction, I dont suppose YOU have any numbers, now do you? Didnt think so.
This is not an attack on you Zaukrie, I merely want to draw this out for the purposes of discussion and to understand where you're coming from.
So, by extension of this position, you would agree that all Power Cards not made by WOTC (or made 100% entirely by the individual for their own sole personal use) is a violation WOTC's rights?
If you're copying the text from their books and distributing it, then yes, you are violating WotC's copyright.
Could you report any posts where anyone's distributing chunks of WotC's IP on EN World? I know it's talked about a lot here, but I haven't personally seen any copyrighted material actually hosted here, although 'm the first to admit it could have skipped me by; but if it's here, it'd help us immensely if you'd point it out.
On the front page of ENWorld there's this Downloads succubus that promises "Free resources to download, from netbooks to power cards" apparently in exchange for my precious bodily fluids. Under there, I see some Dark Pack Warlock power cards from the Forgotten Realms Player Guide. http://www.enworld.org/forum/local_l...&catid=1&id=28
I feel like we've been spoiled by the 3e SRD. Why else would we think that copying big chunks out of a copyrighted book and making it available for free on the web is acceptable?
I don't care how nice the site was or how helpful their offerings were, they had to have seen this coming.
It's only the good sites that get cease and desist letters. If a site weren't helpful then it wouldn't be popular and WotC would probably never become aware of it. Only when it starts to become dangerous to WotC does it become worthwhile for them to take action.
It's really not surprising that they'd start going after sites that compete with one of their upcoming products. It just makes good business sense. You're coming out with product X. There are a few popular free websites that give out product Y (very similar to product X) for free, and they are violating your copyright. It takes them very little effort to send a cease and desist letter to the makers of Y, so why not send one? Very little effort with potentially large gain (people X because Y is no longer available). This is just good business sense.
__________________ Adventure is not outside; it is within. --Found in a fortune cookie on game night
Strangely I think I'd be okay with having a PC die by a bear exploding out of his head. --Awayfarer, after having his PC put a furry ball from a Bag of Tricks into his mouth.
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (TDY in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
Posts: 1,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymrohd
... As for the argument that bad PR causes the market splintering, that I think is just a frail trail of reasoning. Every single edition change has caused market splintering, and 3E was very popular, very public and with a massive number of sourcebooks. I am fairly certain noone skipped 4E primarily because of "bad PR" but rather because they felt a previous or alternate version was a better fit. Bad PR is more of a secondary argument to add to the heap of an edition war.
You'd think that would be the case but it can't be completely ruled out. I feel it's as much an illogical reason for being anti-anything as you do. But, with as many people on here that have stated that very reason, and with some of which I've had very reasoned and logical discussions (in both directions), it can't be ruled out even though it doesn't make sense to you or I.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
You'd think that would be the case but it can't be completely ruled out. I feel it's as much an illogical reason for being anti-anything as you do. But, with as many people on here that have stated that very reason, and with some of which I've had very reasoned and logical discussions (in both directions), I can't rule it out even though it doesn't make sense to you or I.
I'm not discounting bad PR as a logical reason why one would avoid a certain company's product. As I said I just find the notion of that reason being the primary behind this decision a weak one. Certainly if someone decided not to proceed with 4E at a certain point in time, secondary reasons such as this can reinforce his argument and keep him from reconsidering, so bad PR will certainly detract from sales in the long run. I very much feel though that bad PR will never cost WotC as much as pirated content will.
The OGL spoiled as all big time. I may sound harsh in saying this, but consumers are nothing better than greedy brats; get them used to free ice cream and when you actually tell them they have to pay for your new cone they will throw a tantrum. It is an ugly generalization, but it holds more than a grain of truth.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
