Another Cease and Desist Letter: 4E Powercards

[Voadam]

Originally Posted by billd91

I think it's worth pointing out that these other game companies are swimming in different waters, as far as markets and market power, than WotC. I think a lot of smaller companies are willing to invest the effort in these offerings and risk the loss of potential revenue because it (or at least forego a likely paltry revenue stream) saves them in marketing expenses. I suspect it serves as efficient and cheap marketing on their part. They need that community service to keep or expand their niche among niches market.

WotC, with the biggest game titles in market and media share and as part of the Hasbro conglomerate, has the resources to run broader marketing and actually has the a ghost of a chance to turn something like character sheets or power cards into a revenue-generating product. So they do.

WotC itself does Star Wars SE doesn't it?

White Wolf is number 2 for RPG companies in size isn't it?

I think Mongoose is currently the biggest producer of current OGL stuff. I think it is in the top 5 for RPG company sizes.

White wolf does sell character sheets. In print and even in pdf form. RPGNow.com

[Voadam]

Originally Posted by Nymrohd

WotC is losing a lot of money on different forms of pirated content. Would it be bad PR if they served a similar order at someone distributing PHB pdfs? Not likely, people are far more cautious on what side they take on the piracy debate. How is this occurance essentially different though? This site did distribute a rather large part of the PHB illegally. It seems that while it is easier to criticize the anonymous distribution of pirated IP through vast networks we seem on the fence when the same action is taken by a member of the community. Vernacular morality (not a kosher term I guess but still, I feel, fitting) is irrational.

Essential differences between providing a full copy of a game book versus an accessory to help those playing the game?

I can learn how to play 4e D&D from a PH. Though power cards can be used to learn D&D class powers, their primary use and function comes in when I am already playing 4e D&D and want to create tools for use during a specific game.

[Azgulor]

Originally Posted by Nymrohd

The OGL spoiled as all big time. I may sound harsh in saying this, but consumers are nothing better than greedy brats; get them used to free ice cream and when you actually tell them they have to pay for your new cone they will throw a tantrum. It is an ugly generalization, but it holds more than a grain of truth.

As does the statement "without those greedy brats, the greedy corporate shareholders, employees, and suppliers wouldn't earn jack".

As an extreme example: electricity, running water, air conditioning, etc. have spoiled us all big time also. If a utility or government tried to take it away, are we "greedy brats" for being upset? That's the funny thing about products and services - once you've set the bar, customers expect it to always go higher. Sometimes you just can't raise it, sometimes you lower it to cust costs, sometimes someone sets a new bar on a different field. In any case, it's tough to get the genie back into the bottle.

The OGL was a revolutionary step in the industry. It has its good and bad points. In my experience, it is overwhelmingly a good thing. I wouldn't have bought 3e D&D products if there hadn't been an OGL. It may not have worked out exactly the way WotC wanted it to but things in business (or life) seldom do. If the OGL wasn't a big plus for you, you don't feel the restriction of the GSL. For OGL fans, the GSL is a big step in the wrong direction.

I can appreciate some of the arguments people have raised for why the OGL fell out of favor at WotC. I fail to see how the OGL was a bad thing for customers or how the restricting GSL is a blessing for RPG customers.

[Vegepygmy]

Originally Posted by Nymrohd

The OGL spoiled us all big time.

No. We hated TSR for doing the same kind of thing before the OGL was even a gleam in Ryan Dancey's eye.

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by Vegepygmy

No. We hated TSR for doing the same kind of thing before the OGL was even a gleam in Ryan Dancey's eye.

I think making parallels between this and TSR's approach to netbooks and fansites is an intellectually dishonest stretch.

There's a difference between taking down some guy's homebrew because he dared to use the term Dungeon Master, and taking down a site which reprinted large sections of the PHB on-demand. If you can't acknowledge the difference, I can't see a productive conversation here.

-O

[Mercutio01]

I can appreciate some of the arguments people have raised for why the OGL fell out of favor at WotC. I fail to see how the OGL was a bad thing for customers or how the restricting GSL is a blessing for RPG customers.

The issue is not what's good for customers, but what's good for the publisher. The OGL was great for customers and for smaller publishers to get in on the whole market, but my guess is it was awful (or perceived to be so) by WotC.

[Shemeska]

Originally Posted by Krensky

I'd be willing to bet it's so close to zero only an insurance company would notice. I have a hard time seeing someone jumping a container ship to steal RPG books.

And now I'm just getting the image in my head of some Somali pirate hoping to be the next Somali pirate that scores a Saudi oil tanker or a ship full of Ukranian T-72 tanks bound for an undisclosed east African client state... who finds himself in proud possession of a cargo container of 4e D&D books.

I'm sorry, crime and all, sorry for those taking a loss on the high seas and all, yadda yadda yadda, but that would be EPIC.

[tomBitonti]

I've seen it before, but don't have the numbers onhand, but, won't the power cards be a bit pricy? Something like $10 or $12 for the power cards for one class (plus some blank cards), something like 60-80 cards?

That would seem to be a major source of additional revenue. If a player buys a PHB for $30 and a set of cards for $10 (and that is for just one class) that is a 33% increase in revenue.

If one player buys a PHB and another, and his three friends who were used to just borrowing his book, then the sales go from $30 to $70. (But, the other friends may buy their own PHB, so the % is back to 33% again.)

On the other hand, if just one buys a PHB and the other buy one card deck each, that would reduce the sales from $120 to $60.

These are all fuzzy numbers, but this is with just one set of cards, and there are lots of classes to account for. I'd say that the cards are expected to be a major revenue source.

To address two earlier comments in the discussion, my understanding is that lending a book is perfectly alright (and that there is a specific legal principle involved), so the idea of your friends borrowing your book is 100% legitimate.

Also, I am wondering, too, if I made my own power cards with a rephrasing of the rules of the powers, that is, not using the design of the WotC cards, and not using the WotC exact text, but using text that conveys the rules sense of the powers, that that is allowed as a transformative work. I posted on this before, but haven't seen any direct replies.

I do imagine that the WotC cards will be well crafted, and easy to use. On that basis, I can find some support for the WotC product. But, I have a hard time with it because of the difference in the cost, and ease in making ones own cards, and the price charged. I did post on this once before (and got a direct response from Mr. Rouse, who disagreed that the cards were expensive), but i still am a bit uneasy with the price being listed.

Thx!

TomB

[Azgulor]

Originally Posted by Mercutio01

The issue is not what's good for customers, but what's good for the publisher. The OGL was great for customers and for smaller publishers to get in on the whole market, but my guess is it was awful (or perceived to be so) by WotC.

And here we are at the impasse. While the action taken may be right and proper for WotC, it is of zero benefit to the customer - and that is an issue for some people. Usually it's an issue for 100% of the customers.

For example, I have cable companies that are MY customers. I've sat in meetings where they've explained why they offer channel packages versus a la carte channel subscription and I understand that as their operating costs rise, they must raise prices to cover those costs.

However, as a cable customer, I also get ticked off when a rate hike is announced or when the ads for new customers promises a lower rate not available for existing customers - until I call and request it and they give it to me. They want to make as much margin off me as they can. I want them to make as little margin off me as possible while providing the services & products I want.

See, I get where WotC is coming from in terms of business objectives. I'm a capitalist - I applaud the pursuit of making as much money as they can while satisfying their customers. However, as a customer, I want the most I can get for the least amount of money. The more choices I have the better. It's the nature of the supplier:customer relationship. Most of the time it's mutually beneficial but there are instances where they are at odds with one another. It's not good nor bad. It's the nature of the beast.

What I don't get is the mentality of certain customers of always viewing the world through the business-oriented lens of the supplier (WotC in this case). I may understand and appreciate their point of view, but to blindly support it even where it may cost me more money, give me fewer choices, etc. makes no sense to me from a customer's point of view. And except for those on the WotC payroll, at the end of the day we're all customers.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by DaveMage

Every time I see a thread like this, I invoke a silent "thank you" to Ryan Dancey.

Absolutely! I hope his name will always be listed with the pillars of this hobby. His contribution is as great as any of the creators of the hobby.

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Azgulor

What I don't get is the mentality of certain customers of always viewing the world through the business-oriented lens of the supplier (WotC in this case). I may understand and appreciate their point of view, but to blindly support it even where it may cost me more money, give me fewer choices, etc. makes no sense to me from a customer's point of view. And except for those on the WotC payroll, at the end of the day we're all customers.

let me tell you why I side with WotC...3 reasons from least important to most...

1) I feel that they need defending, I hate all the mud being slung there way
2) I dislike illigal activaty being glorfied...I hate when people say prostitution is a victomless crime...or that Pot isn't real drugs, or that power cards are not IP theift and piracy...
3) 12 years ago I watched as the big dog in the RPG companies was delt some bad blows...almost fatal (TSR), and that would have ment no new D&D items...at the time I didn't think there would be a 3rd edtion, but was worried about my fav two magazines... When that happened I realized if D&D went down the next big company was (and still is ) White Wolf, and I can not see them filling TSRs shoes (not then not now)...When WotC bought TSR in 99 I was the only of my friends relived...they all thought they would turn D&D into magic the gathering...But I saw something...my fav game living and getting a second chance...I was a big supporter, and still am becuse I NEED WotC to do well...


You see when WotC does what is in there best intrest they do what is in my best intrest...becuse it helps keep D&D alive and well.

If my Cable company goes out of buisness I will not have no cable, someone will buy it and keep charging us for cable, so I don't care if Comcast stays in buisness or not...same with Dell Computers if they drop someone will make computers still...

If WotC fails, or if they drop 4e(lets be honnest magic is still going strong) then I lose...I lose my new source books and magazines and settings. And I feel (with no real evidance just a feeling) that the whole RPG comunity would take a hit...maybe a fatal one.

The other companies I like: Mongoose, Green Roninin, Palladium, Goodman, Necromancer... I don't think any of them can fill a void that Wotc would create...

you see it as:

Originally Posted by Azgulor

What I don't get is the mentality of certain customers of always viewing the world through the business-oriented lens of the supplier (WotC in this case). I may understand and appreciate their point of view, but to blindly support it even where it may cost me more money, give me fewer choices, etc. makes no sense to me from a customer's point of view. And except for those on the WotC payroll, at the end of the day we're all customers.

but I don't see there best and our best as exclusive...I want Mike Mearls and Scott Rouse, and Bill Saversek(I can't spell his name) to still have jobs next year...I want them to work on PHBIII, and IV, and V and VI...and I want to see 5e and 6e...I hope in 2028 to be enjoying D&D 7e, and to be on these boards (yes morris I want to still be on enworld with my holo vid projector interface thingies) having this discussion again...

[SteveC]

I'm wondering, and I must admit to not having read the entire thread because of how angry it's likely to make me, if the first contact the website owner had from WotC was the Cease and Desist letter. Did they attempt to get them to take the content down by simply asking first? That would say a lot to me about the nature of this situation.

As it stands, I'd say this smacks of...well it smacks of something that I can't say here without violating the Eric's Grandma rule.

I will say that much if not all of this problem could have been eliminated with an actual written policy on fan websites. Seriously: in the time it took to draft the Cease and Desist an actual policy could have been drafted and posted which would eliminate the vast number of cases where it is an issue. As it stands now, this really sounds like the beginnings of an adversarial relationship with the fans that is not in WotC's best interest.

I have used a number of these sites to generate cards for my use, based on books I've purchased. Even with that, I had planned to purchase the official cards when they came out because they're a fantastic idea that makes gaming better for me. Will I do that anymore? No. I'll just make my own homebrew cards and call it a day. And I'm not the only person who will do this. WotC needs some major damage control on this issue: I don't envy Scott's job in the next few weeks!

--Steve

[Murad]

wizards of the coast is very bad. they no care for customer. they like imperialist to conquer the world.

[Sir Brennen]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I'm wondering, and I must admit to not having read the entire thread because of how angry it's likely to make me,

Then I'd suggest you read more of the thread. It's a pretty cut-n-dried case, and I don't think it's shaping up to be a PR issue of any kind. It's not even something that needs a fan site policy to cover in this instance.

I mean, if an author publishes a book of short stories, does he need a fan site policy to let people know not to put all, or even half, the stories up on their sites for free download?

I'm fairly certain the fan site policy, when it does get completed, will be pretty liberal, mainly with the caveat "Don't put big chunks of our published material up!"

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I'm wondering, and I must admit to not having read the entire thread because of how angry it's likely to make me, if the first contact the website owner had from WotC was the Cease and Desist letter. Did they attempt to get them to take the content down by simply asking first? That would say a lot to me about the nature of this situation.

you do realize all they did was send a form letter telling him to take it down...or in your own words

attempt to get them to take the content down by simply asking first?

what do you think a C&D letter is???

As it stands, I'd say this smacks of...well it smacks of something that I can't say here without violating the Eric's Grandma rule.

right...becuse they launched a law suit...oh wait they sent a darn letter

I will say that much if not all of this problem could have been eliminated with an actual written policy on fan websites. Seriously: in the time it took to draft the Cease and Desist an actual policy could have been drafted and posted which would eliminate the vast number of cases where it is an issue. As it stands now, this really sounds like the beginnings of an adversarial relationship with the fans that is not in WotC's best interest.

first I want a fan site set of rules...BUT that is not needed I know already that if I break the law and reproduce whole parts of books there is no company in the world that will not ask me to stop...seriesly do you need a polocy from the US goverment to know not to cheat on your taxes...

I have used a number of these sites to generate cards for my use, based on books I've purchased. Even with that, I had planned to purchase the official cards when they came out because they're a fantastic idea that makes gaming better for me.

we are in the same boat then...I do the same...and still plan to buy the offical ones (as long as they are good)...

Will I do that anymore? No.

how perfect is that...they saved you money

I'll just make my own homebrew cards and call it a day. And I'm not the only person who will do this. WotC needs some major damage control on this issue: I don't envy Scott's job in the next few weeks!

I really hope scott gets a good laugh at the histaria before he reminds you they did what you just asked... again to quite you

attempt to get them to take the content down by simply asking first?

[malraux]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I'm wondering, and I must admit to not having read the entire thread because of how angry it's likely to make me, if the first contact the website owner had from WotC was the Cease and Desist letter. Did they attempt to get them to take the content down by simply asking first?

If only there were some standardized legal letter that asked someone to stop and refrain from doing something that could be sent out before actually engaging in a lawsuit. We could even refer to it simply by it nature of asking to stop and refrain (or other legalese synonyms).

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Sir Brennen

I don't think it's shaping up to be a PR issue of any kind.

the funny part is that it is..people are making moutains out of...(what is smaller then a mole hill?)

It's not even something that needs a fan site policy to cover in this instance.

I mean, if an author publishes a book of short stories, does he need a fan site policy to let people know not to put all, or even half, the stories up on their sites for free download?

darn you...that is like 500% better analogy them my tax thing...but since we are on the same page I will thank you for saying what I could not...

[Scott_Rouse]

The fansite policy is being worked on. I was in a planning meeting today and it was being discussed and appropriately prioritized. I have read the draft and my personal opinion is that it looks very good. These will be guidelines and not a treatise on IP law. The fan site policy will not be a replacement for legal advice or common sense.


The web site in question had approximately 1825 full text power card entries. Of those 1 was a homebrew power. It also used Player's Handbook trade dress and the Dungeons & Dragons logo. The GSL does not allow for this type of use. FWIW, I saw this site for the first time on January 5th.

As I said in the Ema's post this is not a war on fansites. We appreciate fansites that respect our IP and support our business, ENWorld is a fine example of this type of websites. WotC has a great relationship with Russ and we sincerely value this community's support and patronage.

[Murad]

Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse

The fansite policy is being worked on. I was in a planning meeting today and it was being discussed and appropriately prioritized. I have read the draft and my personal opinion is that it looks very good. These will be guidelines and not a treatise on IP law. The fan site policy will not be a replacement for legal advice or common sense.


The web site in question had approximately 1825 full text power card entries. Of those 1 was a homebrew power. It also used Player's Handbook trade dress and the Dungeons & Dragons logo. The GSL does not allow for this type of use. FWIW, I saw this site for the first time on January 5th.

As I said in the Ema's post this is not a war on fansites. We appreciate fansites that respect our IP and support our business, ENWorld is a fine example of this type of websites. WotC has a great relationship with Russ and we sincerely value this community's support and patronage.

Yeah, you know what? Personal insults aren't permitted here. Don't do so again. ~ Piratecat

I no buy your product no more.

[DimitriX]

One of the things that I've been interested in is why some people seem to 'blindly' agree with WotC actions even when those actions, if performed by another company, would gather huge customer uprising. How many times have you been on the forums of a MMORPG and seen people threatening class action lawsuits because some class got nerfed or a notoriety system was put into place for player killers?

I think some of the posts above have put their finger on the issue: this is DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. If we were talking about Conan 2e or True20 or Mutants and Masterminds, then I don't think people would really be as bothered either way. But, this is the game that many of us grew up playing. for most of us, this was our first rpg. This is also THE rpg in pop culture. Most people don't know anything about roleplaying games, but they know DnD. So, when we see DnD go through some changes it becomes much more personal because we have much more invested in it.

I think one of the issues is that some people are associating DnD with WotC and some are not. I think those that associate DnD with WotC (whether consciously or not) are the ones that defend WotC the most adamantly even when WotC actions negatively affect them (albeit perhaps in minor ways). However, the folks who do not associate WotC with DnD (and I'm one of them) believe that the game or something like it would exist if WotC disappeared tomorrow. This belief may or may not be true, but I think it is what some people believe.

So, I think many of these discussions related to WotC corporate decisions and edition wars are just people talking past each other. If you love DnD and you believe that DnD can't exist without WotC, then of course you have to love WotC too. However, if you love DnD and you believe that it is YOUR game and not theirs, then WotC is merely a custodian of a legacy. And, if you believe that the custodian is no longer acting in the best interest of DnD, then it must be time for a new custodian.

This might seem like nothing more than mental masturbation, but I feel that it is important to understand someone's perspective when getting in these kinds of discussions which can sometimes get heated. And, my guess this is why some people will never be convinced one way or another.