Another Cease and Desist Letter: 4E Powercards

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Murad

4E is worst edition ever. Is for children.

Then I am damn happy to be a child of 34. 'Cause for me, 4e has been the best edition ever.

[Murad]

Originally Posted by Jack99

Then I am damn happy to be a child of 34. 'Cause for me, 4e has been the best edition ever.

For me, no. Very dissapoint.

[the Jester]

Red text = moderator voice, any further discussion should go to email. Publically disputing moderator decisions is one of the very few things that the powers that be on ENWorld have zero tolerance for.

[Piratecat]

Originally Posted by Murad

Is not insult. is opinion on game. I see many, many insult to the 3rd edition here.

1. don't publicly discuss moderation here. Feel free to email me if you have questions.

2. You've personally insulted other members, as well as making blanket statement comparing people who like 4e to children.

Stop now, please. And feel free to email me (by clicking on my user name) if this is somehow not clear.

[Murad]

Originally Posted by the Jester

Red text = moderator voice, any further discussion should go to email. Publically disputing moderator decisions is one of the very few things that the powers that be on ENWorld have zero tolerance for.

moderator can be wrong too.

[Piratecat]

Originally Posted by Murad

moderator can be wrong too.

That may not have been the best way to proceed.

Please review the rules before posting further on EN World. Thanks.

EDIT: And hey, everybody! Please greet the member "ProfessorPain," who apparently thinks he can hide behind a second account so that he can troll. Yeah... not so much.

[Kamikaze Midget]

So again, any numbers on actualy RPG piracy theft?

The thing with piracy (which isn't theft, btw) is that the numbers don't even tell half the story. They don't even BEGIN to tell the story. The story isn't ultimately about the numbers. It's something much bigger than that.

But piracy also isn't here or there -- this site wasn't engaged in piracy, really. Heck, it wasn't doing anything Shepard Fairey isn't getting sued over. WotC was (perhaps debatably) within their rights to ask someone who was taking the rules they wrote and publishing them to stop doing that.

The reason it sucks biggest in my own opinion is because it shows a remarkable lack of foresight from WotC. They're going with the old model of tight control and protection, rather than a new model of encouraging end-user innovation, such as by offering this website a special license to continue to do what they do under WotC's watchful eye, rather than off by themselves. I can't really blame them for going with the wisdom of the ages rather than adapting here, but it's a little disappointing -- kind of like a "war on drugs," a fight against this kind of remixing is ultimately sound and fury signifying nothing (I can get marajuana if I want, and I can still get 4e rules for free if I want, and no policy or rule or barrier is ever going to be able to completely stop it, as far as anyone can see).

I expected it, I don't blame them, and they're totally fair in this. I kind of wish they would choose something a little bolder and more pro-active, but I'm not going to burn them for not fulfilling my little fantasies, here.

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Kamikaze Midget

I kind of wish they would choose something a little bolder and more pro-active, but I'm not going to burn them for not fulfilling my little fantasies, here.

I agree...it would be awsome if WotC was more bold and inavative...I just don't want them to shot themselves in the foot...like I said pages ago I want to see WotC still be makeing mony off D&D 20 years from now...

[Shemeska]

Originally Posted by Jack99

ICompared to that, we have 4e books selling more than the previous edition, according to places like US Today top 150, making it to the yearly amazon top 100 sales list. Every statement we have seen from WotC indicates that 4e outsold 3.x by quite a bit.

The only thing we have regarding sales are some relative numbers for the original core trio of books regarding initial print runs. There has been a deafening silence on sales of books released after that point.

We're all going to read into that void as we see fit, and without numbers that neither of us have access to, neither my skepticism nor others fanboyism is going to bend much. I swear, some folks seem to take personal offense at the very suggestion that the 4e might not be the most financially successful edition of all time by any metric possible.

[Korgoth]

A couple of points. As an staunch grognard, I need WOTC products like Haifa needs bacon cheeseburgers. And the one great boon of the 3E era was the OGL... the OGL was a brilliant stroke which is of benefit to gamers everywhere and helps ensure the life of this hobby in the future, come what may. Sadly WOTC has turned their back on the OGL and decided to go in a different, less fortunate direction.

Now. All of that has no particular bearing on this question. Because whatever anyone thinks of WOTC's products or the direction they've decided to go, WOTC owns those products and gets to choose their direction. So WOTC has decided that the complete power card text for all the powers isn't free... whether that's a good or bad decision doesn't even factor into this. It's their product and it's their decision. So if someone decides to give away that text, WOTC has every right to ask them to stop doing it.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

let me tell you why I side with WotC...3 reasons from least important to most...

1) I feel that they need defending, I hate all the mud being slung their way

If there's anything I don't understand more than people who feel a need to attack WoTC (not just expressing opinions but actual verbal attacks) is those people who feel it's theie self appointed task to be WoTC's "Defenders of the Faith". Absolutely boggles my mind. It seems as if there are fans who are more concerned with protecting WoTC's PR image than even WoTC is willing to do.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

2) I dislike illegal activity being glorified...I hate when people say prostitution is a victimless crime...or that Pot isn't real drugs, or that power cards are not IP theft and piracy...

Then you've found good company on this thread, since I don't recall anyone on here "glorifying" illegal activity. The almost unanimous opinion seems to be that WoTC was completely within their rights, and that the site, albeit useable and popular, was violating copyright. If opinions such as that are "glorifying" illegal activity, then I'd posit that WoTC's tacit approval during the months where they didn't have there own like product on line, was passively doing the very same thing.

While nobody is denying WoTC right to defend there IP, how they do it is definitely a matter for debate. There's a way to do this, and not alienate your fans/customers, and there's a way that won't. People are watching very closely to see which path WoTC takes.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

3) 12 years ago I watched as the big dog in the RPG companies was dealt some bad blows...almost fatal (TSR), and that would have meant no new D&D items...at the time I didn't think there would be a 3rd edtion, but was worried about my fave two magazines... When that happened I realized if D&D went down the next big company was (and still is ) White Wolf, and I can not see them filling TSR's shoes (not then not now)...When WotC bought TSR in 99 I was the only one of my friends relieved...they all thought they would turn D&D into magic the gathering...But I saw something...my fave game living and getting a second chance...I was a big supporter, and still am because I NEED WotC to do well...

Bad blows that were almost entirely self-inflicted. You'll find no sympathy for this one. TSR engaged in predatory practices aimed at eliminating even legal competition through borderline (and not so borderline) unethical, and possibly illegal, actions. There was an adversarial philosophy towards fans/customers that those who ran the company felt were immature imbeciles. TSR at the time had a leader who's goal was simply to gouge these stupid RPG fans for as much money as possible, all the while enacting guidance to attack and denigrate those same fans/customers. Because of that, some fans/customers get very touchy about things that appear to be going in that direction again. (Not saying they are, but there do seem to be things happening, and perceived attitudes, that seem to be paralleling those past occurances.)

However, the company failed because of gross mismanagement from the top, despite the fact that sales of D&D products were bigger than any other RPG company in the business. The history of this is pretty well documented.

If someone wanted to truly defend their favorite company, so said company could stick around and make their favorite products in perpetuity, a much more effective tactic would be to make sure that their favorite company was keeping their customers happy. It seems like oversight and criticism of the company, rather than criticism of other fans/customers would be much more beneficial.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

You see, when WotC does what is in their best intrest, they do what is in my best interest...because it helps keep D&D alive and well.

Seems to me, that when a company does what their customers want (the customers best interest), then said customers buy the companies products making the company lots and lots of money. Win-Win. Thus the guidance: "The customer is always right!". When a company decides that they are right, despite an uproar from their fans/customers, then said company doesn't remain in business very long. (Again, not saying that this is currently happening, but there do seem to be indicators that could be interpreted as a shift towards that direction.)

Another applicable quote: "Pride goeth before the Fall!".

Hubris and Arrogance are very close cousins of Pride.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

If WotC fails, or if they drop 4e, (let's be honest magic is still going strong) then I lose...I lose my new source books and magazines and settings. And I feel (with no real evidance, just a feeling) that the whole RPG comunity would take a hit...maybe a fatal one.

No argument from me, and probably no argument from most everyone here. But, not providing your favorite company with feedback of what you as a customer want, including constructive criticism, could hasten that very failure which you seem to endeavor to prevent.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

but I don't see their best and our best as exclusive...I want Mike Mearls and Scott Rouse, and Bill Slavicsek(I can't spell his name) to still have jobs next year...I want them to work on PHBIII, and IV, and V and VI...and I want to see 5e and 6e...I hope in 2028 to be enjoying D&D 7e, and to be on these boards (yes, morrus I want to still be on enworld with my holo vid projector interface thingies) having this discussion again...

Agreed 100%, as probably everyone else on this thread hopes for also. I would be very surprised if you found anyone on this thread that wants those guys to lose their jobs, or for WoTC to fail. I don't recall anyone on this thread expressing, or even implying, they would want that to happen. Criticism isn't always malevolent, just as blind devotion isn't always beneficial.

[Piratecat]

Originally Posted by Kamikaze Midget

They're going with the old model of tight control and protection, rather than a new model of encouraging end-user innovation, such as by offering this website a special license to continue to do what they do under WotC's watchful eye, rather than off by themselves.

That would have been really cool.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

...what do you think a C&D letter is??? ...

One is a request, even when they don't need to request anything. Such behavior proves intent of goodwill.

The other says "Do this or Else!". Which is a very formal demand with a threat of legal action.

The first tact proves intent of Goodwill. The second doesn't disprove intent of Goodwill, but also doesn't promote Goodwill.

There is a significant difference in the two possible approaches. That's the reason why people are interested to know if there was friendly contact first, or was it just the C&D.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

right...becuse they launched a law suit...oh wait they sent a darn letter

Right, "a darn letter" threatening a law suit!

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

One is a request, even when they don't need to request anything. Such behavior proves intent of goodwill.

The other says "Do this or Else!". Which is a very formal demand with a threat of legal action.

The first tact proves intent of Goodwill. The second doesn't disprove intent of Goodwill, but also doesn't promote Goodwill.

There is a significant difference in the two possible approaches. That's the reason why people are interested to know if there was friendly contact first, or was it just the C&D.

ok I am going to try this anology thing again (I have 2 strikes so far)...

If my friend I have known for hte last 6 months hits my car I can call him at home, I know him...If a stranger in a parkeing lot hits my car I have to call the police...the diffrence is not me being unwilling to work with the person...the diffrence is that I need to make sure....

a C&D is not anything to be upset about...if you recive one your first thought should be "Did I break the law" if your answer is no...you have nothing to worry about...if the answer is YES...then you best do what it says...of cource there is always the "I am nut sure" answer witch is more complacated...

[Burrito Al Pastor]

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

Right, "a darn letter" threatening a law suit!

So they should have sent a letter threatening a letter threatening a lawsuit?

"Cease and desist" is pretty strongly-worded stuff, but it's worth noting that "Please stop doing this, we'd hate to have to resort to legal action" is just as much a C&D as "IF YOU DON'T STOP RIGHT NOW WE'LL SUE YOU SO HARD..."


As far as D&D piracy goes, there aren't any numbers on it, because it's almost completely impossible to get any kind of reliable numbers on any kind of piracy, for what I would imagine are obvious reasons. Just about the only reliable numbers I'm aware of are from World of Goo, which had no DRM and an internet high scores database, so the developers could see that the number of people playing the game was ten times the number of people who had bought it.

Whatever the piracy rate is of D&D products, it's not likely to be low, because it would be so easy to pirate D&D books, because as appealing as the image is, piracy of D&D isn't going to involve physical books. Scanners mean that books can become data easily, and depending on how PDF watermarks work, it could be even easier than that to get your D&D books into an untraceable data form. Plausible-denial direct-download sites like Rapidshare mean that there's no serious difficulty in distributing said untraceable data.

This, I think, is one of the secret goals of the D&D Compendium. I'm not buying Open Grave, but I'm also not pirating it, because as a DDI subscriber I have ready access to all the stuff in it.

[xechnao]

Originally Posted by Phaezen

As baseline here, roughly 80-90% of pc game installs are pirated. FOr backup to this claims, there are links off this page.

So the short answer is if piracy rates amongst gamers is anywhere near as high as that, and my experience is that that is a distinct possibility, WOTC are loosing a bucketload of sales.

Even discounting those players who wouldn't buy the books anyway and only counting those who aren't buying the books/ddi subscriptions because it is easy enough to find pirated copies WOTC and other gaming companies must be taking a large hit in sales.

Phaezen

That page you are talking about is sourcing info from this page:
http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/
What is its conclusion? Read for yourself:

"one thing that really jumped out at me was his estimate that preventing 1000 piracy attempts results in only a single additional sale. this supports our intuitive assessment that people who pirate our game aren’t people who would have purchased it had they not been able to get it without paying. in our case, we might have even converted more than 1 in a 1000 pirates into legit purchases. either way, ricochet shipped with DRM, world of goo shipped without it, and there seems to be no difference in the outcomes. we can’t draw any conclusions based on two data points"

[malraux]

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

One is a request, even when they don't need to request anything. Such behavior proves intent of goodwill.

The other says "Do this or Else!". Which is a very formal demand with a threat of legal action.

The first tact proves intent of Goodwill. The second doesn't disprove intent of Goodwill, but also doesn't promote Goodwill.

There is a significant difference in the two possible approaches. That's the reason why people are interested to know if there was friendly contact first, or was it just the C&D.



Right, "a darn letter" threatening a law suit!

Wouldn't the friendly letter also threaten legal action? I would assume it lists why they want the site taken down and if not what they will do next.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse

The fansite policy is being worked on. I was in a planning meeting today and it was being discussed and appropriately prioritized. I have read the draft and my personal opinion is that it looks very good. These will be guidelines and not a treatise on IP law. The fan site policy will not be a replacement for legal advice or common sense.


The web site in question had approximately 1825 full text power card entries. Of those 1 was a homebrew power. It also used Player's Handbook trade dress and the Dungeons & Dragons logo. The GSL does not allow for this type of use. FWIW, I saw this site for the first time on January 5th.

As I said in the Ema's post this is not a war on fansites. We appreciate fansites that respect our IP and support our business, ENWorld is a fine example of this type of websites. WotC has a great relationship with Russ and we sincerely value this community's support and patronage.

Thanks for the update on the fansite policy, Scott. Much appreciated.

Also, thank you for the stats for what was on the site, although, that probably wasn't entirely necessary. I doubt there are very many people here that think you didn't have a right to do what you did. More importantly than the GSL not allowing such things, Copyright law doesn't allow such things without permission. I think it's more that people here are watching very closely how WoTC does these things and what tone WoTC takes in these dealings (and wondering where WoTC's future intentions may lead).

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

If there's anything I don't understand more than people who feel a need to attack WoTC (not just expressing opinions but actual verbal attacks) is those people who feel it's there self appointed task to be WoTC's "Defenders of the Faith". Absolutely boggles my mind. It seems as if there are fans who are more concerned with protecting WoTC's PR image than even WoTC is willing to do.

I don't consider myself a "defender of the faith"

Then you've found good company on this thread, since I don't recall anyone on here "glorifying" illegal activity.

I was being pretty general there...but I have gotten what I call the 'robin hood' argument thrown at me on other boards

While nobody is denying WoTC right to defend there IP, how they do it is definitely a matter for debate.

I agree I only jumped in when people got nuts and started talking about a 'war on fansites'

Bad blows that were almost entirely self-inflicted. You'll find no sympathy for this one. TSR engaged in predatory practices aimed at eliminating even legal competition through borderline (and not so borderline) unethical, and possibly illegal, actions. There was an adversarial philosophy towards fans/customers that those who ran the company felt were immature imbeciles. TSR at the time had a leader who's goal was simply to gouge these stupid RPG fans for as much money as possible, all the while enacting guidance to attack and denigrate those same fans/customers.

I agree...infact there is on the WotC site a guy who when he was 13 got a C&D becuse he had a website talking about his 2 e campaing...

Because of that, some fans/customers get very touchy about things that appear to be going in that direction again. (Not saying they are, but there do seem to be things happening, and perceived attitudes, that seem to be paralleling those past occurances.)

I remember those dark days...I am trying to fight to make sure people realize the diffrence

If someone wanted to truly defend their favorite company, so said company could stick around and make their favorite products in perpetuity, a much more effective tactic would be to make sure that their favorite company was keeping their customers happy. It seems like oversight and criticism of the company, rather than criticism of other fans/customers would be much more beneficial.

Maybe but when people spread false info or start lobbing crazy 'evil corprate' things about WotC I want to set the record straight...

Seems to me, that when a company does what their customers want (the customers best interest), then said customers buy the companies products making the company lots and lots of money. Win-Win.

I also feel that a company that forgets it's bottom line and focuses on pleasing over damanding cutomers will soon find they are not makeing enough moey...

Thus the guidance: "The customer is always right!". When a company decides that they are right, despite an uproar from their fans/customers, then said company doesn't remain in business very long. (Again, not saying that this is currently happening, but there do seem to be indicators that could be interpreted as a shift towards that direction.)

That is another reason for my posts...To show there is a group of us that are NOT against this trend of defending there IP...I want them to realize I want them to keep this up...

No argument from me, and probably no argument from most everyone here. But, not providing your favorite company with feedback of what you as a customer want, including constructive criticism, could hasten that very failure which you seem to endeavor to prevent.

yes and as I said I agree with this trend...

Agreed 100%, as probably everyone else on this thread hopes for also. I would be very surprised if you found anyone on this thread that wants those guys to lose their jobs, or for WoTC to fail. I don't recall anyone on this thread expressing, or even implying, they would want that to happen. Criticism isn't always malevolent, just as blind devotion isn't always beneficial.

some people here ARE anti WotC...although they are few and far between

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by malraux

A Cease and Desist letter is not a legal (as in a judge sent it and if you don't follow it the police will arrest you) letter. It will typically mention that legal action is a possibility, but that's better than threatening to break kneecaps or something.

However, also not as cordial as "We've noticed you have copyrighted material on your website. Can you please remove it?". Without the added "or we'll sue you!".