General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
So between the movies, the Clone Wars cartoon, LEGO Star Wars, and the Force Unleashed, my oldest son is a Star Wars fanatic.
He's almost 9, so I figure he's almost old enough to introduce to RPGs with his birthday coming up and Star Wars seems like an obvious choice.
I've seen a lot of people rave about SAGA although to be honest, I wasn't paying much attention to Star Wars RPGs in the past so maybe they raved about the Revised edition as well.
So I'm wondering whether to pursue the SAGA edition or scrounge up the Revised core rulebook and its supplements instead.
Big-Time Caveat #1: I can't stomach 4e D&D. (However - If you do, more power to you.) I understand 4e wasn't quite the follow-on from SAGA that most people thought it would be - but if SAGA is just 4e-lite, then I already know it's not for me. While I'd be running the game for my son, if I can't stand the system, neither of us will be playing.
So what are the pros and cons of each system. Where is one stronger than the other?
Characters are build on a Class / Feat / Skill Point system
Lots of skills and skill points
BAB is different for each class
AC and saves present
Force Powers sap health and are skills to be learned
Multi-classing and Prestige classes are present
Attacks per round are determined by your BAB and Feats
SAGA is more 3.75
Characters get Talent Trees much like d20 Modern at odd levels
Characters get Feats at Even levels
Multi-classing is just like 3.5 (every level, you pick a class to level in)
Prestige classes are just like 3.5
Force powers are handled much like Bot9S - You take a feat and based on your wisdom modifier number of force powers that can be used (this system was later expanded to Star Ship Combat) The Force ends up being a combination of talents (always usable) and once per encounter force powers
Skills are consolidated (much like 4E). Being trained in a skill gives a +5 bonus, otherwise, your skill points in every skill is 1/2 your level
AC is gone, instead you directly attack Fort/Refl/Will like 4E(don't have my book on this one, I may be mistaken)
Classes still have different BAB
4E action exist - Standard, Move, Minor. Like 4E, these can be traded down
Like 4E, only 1 attack per round (though feats can increase this)
You can't go wrong with either system. While both version can be as complicated as you'd like them to be, if I was to present the game to my unborn son, I'd go with SAGA because of the character generation (slightly easier without having to mess with skill points) and the slightly simpler combat.
__________________ -You're Gonna Carry That Weight
SWSE takes a lot from 3.5, but has a lot of the same "seeds" which sprouted in 4e.
If you don't like 4e's power system, it's largely absent, so you should be fine. The exception are Force Powers, which are all Encounter-based, like Bo9S's maneuvers. Otherwise, no other characters have powers.
SWSE uses the Saves-as-Defenses mechanic like 4e. There is no AC, and all attack rolls are vs. one of the 3 defenses. There are no saving throws.
SWSE uses a 4e-ish skill system. You have Attribute + 1/2 Level in all skills, +5 if Trained. You also get +5 for Skill Focus, unlike 4e.
SWSE has a Second Wind action, which lets you recover HPs without external healing. Past that, though, healing is kind of tough to come by, unless you're a light-side Jedi.
It has a more 3e-ish approach to feats, and it has a wealth of talents - which are like class abilities, chosen from a menu.
It also uses 3e-style multiclassing, only on steroids. Multiclassing is an assumption of the system, not an exception. It's most similar to d20 Modern in that there are only a small list of classes, which you mix & match to create your character.
I'd go with SWSE, personally. It's a much more streamlined game than RCR, and thus probably better for a 9-year-old. There are a wealth of options, still, and you can make just about any character. Also, the system was tweaked to specifically make a cinematic action-oriented Star Wars game - something I don't think RCR was.
I ran SWSE for most of a year, happily. It's a good, solid game. About the only large-scale flaw with it as I see it is that Force Powers are a bit too easy to utterly tweak-out. Jedi at low levels would never need to use their lightsabers, basically, at the cost of a single feat.
While Saga incorporates some 4e proto-elements (second wind but not healing surges, static defenses vs. rolled saves, untrained/trained/focused skills) its a much better system than Revised (having played both for a good long time, I can attest).
General Improvements
* Hit Points vs. Vitality/Wound: This one is big for me. V/WP was supposed to promote a more cinematic game by making vitality "easily healed" while wound represented "actual damage". In reality, it was a mess. Critical dealt straight to wound, and high level PCs (read: anyone over 5th level) could kill a character (be it a moisture farmer or Darth Vader) in one lucky die roll. Realistic? Sure. But that's not SW's thing. Unless your 9 year old is very mature about watching his PC die in one roll (often without any way to avoid it) avoid V/WP.
* The Force: In Saga, the Force is divide into three parts: Use the Force (a skill for minor powers like lifting light objects or sensing disturbances), talents (for cool specialized powers like sensing the dark side or battle meditation) and powers (in 4e terms: encounter powers that represent iconic powers like force lightning or mind trick). The tiers make the Force more akin to its uses in the movie without overpowering Jedi. In Revised, the Force is tied to a number of skills (like Move Object and Telepathy) and Feats (like Force Speed and Lightsaber defense) which draw off your Vitality (see above) creating a death spiral effect; the more Force you use, the more likely you are to die. Also, skill points become a big commodity for Jedi PCs; making Int the Godstat of Jedi (behind Dex).
* Class Balance: Saga has 5 classes (Jedi, Solider, Scout, Noble, Scoundrel). Revised has 9 (Jedi Guardian [a warrior-jedi], Jedi Consular [a more Force-attuned Jedi], Solider, Scout, Noble, Scoundrel, Fringer, Tech Specialist, Force Adept [Non-Jedi Force Users]). Despite nearly doubling the classes, the vast majority of them were useless. Jedi overpowered the game handily thanks to the Force and made many classes redundant (J Guardians overpowered soldiers, Consulars trashed Nobles). Fringers were weak for anything more than a level dip, and Tech Spec was an NPC class trying to be a PC class (weak, easily replicated by other classes). This typically lead to All-Jedi parties since they were easily the best class in the game (with consular edging out guardian, in Skill Points vs. Bab, SP wins). In Saga, the classes are pretty much even. Class abilities have been replaced by talents (with each class getting one every odd level) and bonus feats (even levels) so each class feels unique but no one a clear winner. The lost classes were folded into other classes. Overall, the Saga classes feel better balanced and easily customized, while the Revised run the gamut of good to poor.
While on paper Revised looks like "D&D with lightsabers" (the solider class IS a fighter with some tweaks, for example) SAGA captures the feel much better and is infinitely more fun (and easier) to play. While it does incorporate some proto-4e, its mostly its own unique thing.
One Caveat: there are some oddities in the system, particularly with Skill Focus: Use the Force breaking the game at low levels. No system is perfect, but IMHO its a much better system (esp for a starting RPer) than Revised.
I like several of the changes to SAGA edition. However, I won't play it. I dislike the removal of skill points, the over consolidation of skills, and the per encounter system all of which, for me, deal breakers.
__________________ "The designers of the newest edition built so much reliance on rules right into the game, to make it easier to play. As one of those designers, I occasionally think to myself, 'What have we wrought?' " -Monte Cook
" If the DM has to make a lot of judgment calls, the game is more difficult to learn. However, it's my belief that it's also more satisfying." -Monte Cook
"Don't let rules replace good DMing skills"- Monte Cook
SAGA rules make it basically easy to play like a film, Revised Edition doesn't (missing out lots of utterly basic things, like seeing with the force when your blast visor is down!).
Revised was OK when it was the only game in town, but SAGA knocks it into a cocked hat when it was released.
Cheers
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"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
My group went from playing revised for about 4 months once a weekend to playing SAGA once a weekend for a little over a year.
Having played both I definately think that either system has its own merits and flaws, but overall SAGA is the way to go.
I felt that in Saga I could more accurately customize my character to be just how I wanted them. I felt the Force system in SAGA was a bit cleaner and easier to use. I really like how the saga expansion books are set up( You get a bit for everyone in each book including items equipment classes and lots of fluff).
I think SAGA more than revised it is easier to build a very powerful or very weak character, system mastery seemed to be well rewarded in SAGA. I think people that are very comfortable with 3.5 will find that it's easier to adapt to Revised, but if you can pick up any system just as easy as the next SAGA won't be to much different.
One big draw to SAGA is that it still has new books coming out about every 3 months so, unlike revised, if what you really want isn't out yet there is a chance it could be planned out for a future book.
I like several of the changes to SAGA edition. However, I won't play it. I dislike the removal of skill points, the over consolidation of skills, and the per encounter system all of which, for me, deal breakers.
You can probably successfully argue whether or not D&D needs large amounts of skills (along with micromanaged skill points) and a rest/refresh mechanic to regaining powers, but I have a hard time with Star Wars using those mechanics (now that better alternatives are available). Star Wars SCREAMS for PCs who can do it all and go at it all guns blazing, something Revised modeled so poorly it rarely felt like a Star Wars game, it felt like D&D with lightsabers.
In the discussion between RCR and Saga Edition for Star Wars RPG, I'd have to go Saga Edition all the way. It's a far cry from being "4e lite," enough so that more than a few ENWorlders were very upset when the revealed 4e turned out to have very little to actually do with how Saga Edition works.
Saga Edition isn't as entrenched in "micro-management" as RCR was, namely the removal of skill points (something I honeslty loathed about D&D 3rd edition). And with skills working the way the do now, it's a lot easier to have the "jack of all trades" type of characters that we constantly see in the movies.
Another point in SWSE's favor is that it was designed more to mimic the stuff we see in the movies and cartoons, where RCR suffered from being "D&D in Space." Combat is much quicker and cleaner compared to the RCR.
Jedi are no longer the end-all, be-all type of characters they were under RCR, with everyone else being brought up to the Jedi's level. Anyone can be a decent Force-user; characters that take their 1st level in Jedi just getting a running head start. One point to be wary of is that Force-users, especially those that took Skill Focus (Use the Force) at an early level, will frankly dominate the game in the early levels, but once the bad guys' Defense scores start catching up, it becomes much more difficult to affect them with Force powers.
One thing to bear in mind is that making a heroic character that totally sucks at combat in SWSE is next to impossible, and a lot of the feats, not only in the core book but many of the supplements, tend to deal with combat. Of course, many of the RCR's non-combat feats were of the "+2 to related two skills" variety.
If you're interested in just hearing more about Star Wars Saga Edition form the vantage point of two guys that play the game and discuss it at length, check out the earlier episodes of the Ennie-Nominated Order 66 Podcast (check the link in my sig). Granted, the first few casts are a little rough as Chris and Dave are still finding their feet in terms of show format, but they do a pretty good overview of the system.
Jedi are no longer the end-all, be-all type of characters they were under RCR, with everyone else being brought up to the Jedi's level. Anyone can be a decent Force-user; characters that take their 1st level in Jedi just getting a running head start. One point to be wary of is that Force-users, especially those that took Skill Focus (Use the Force) at an early level, will frankly dominate the game in the early levels, but once the bad guys' Defense scores start catching up, it becomes much more difficult to affect them with Force powers.
I've got to disagree with this point. The Jedi / non-Jedi divide is still huge in the game (as it has been in every d20 SW game). The Jedi is the Swiss army knife in a stone-age world. The Jedi can easily play the role of medic, diplomat, party face, fighter, and mystic all with one skill (Use the Force) and picking up the feat that gives extra force powers. About the only thing a Jedi doesn't do is pilot (except for the talent that lets the Jedi roll Use the Force for pilot checks). I actually prefer the revised rules for handling the Force: many skills and feats that, when used, expended the Jedi's vitality points. This forced the Jedi to specialize in certain powers and helped (a little) in toning down the Jedi's power.
Many people have brought up the point about Skill Focus: Use the Force. It was suggested that this feat have a level requirement of nine by a person I respect highly. We played it this way, and while the +5 bonus was still huge at level 9, it is no where near as disruptive as it was at level 1. For those new to the SAGA edition, Use the Force is a skill check that is often used against a target's defenses. Skill Focus: Use the Force ends up giving a +5 to hit at level 1 which is just way too good.
__________________ -You're Gonna Carry That Weight
Last edited by Alaxk Knight of Galt; 26th February 2009 at 09:10 PM..
I've got to disagree with this point. The Jedi / non-Jedi divide is still huge in the game (as it has been in every d20 SW game). The Jedi is the Swiss army knife in a stone-age world. The Jedi can easily play the role of medic, diplomat, party face, fighter, and mystic all with one skill (Use the Force) and picking up the feat that gives extra force powers. About the only thing a Jedi doesn't do is pilot (except for the talent that lets the Jedi roll Use the Force for pilot checks). I actually prefer the revised rules for handling the Force: many skills and feats that, when used, expended the Jedi's vitality points. This forced the Jedi to specialize in certain powers and helped (a little) in toning down the Jedi's power.
The main reason people find Jedi in Saga more balanced is that a.) The Force is available to all PCs at the same power level; Jedi are only more specialized at its uses and b.) Class abilities for the other four classes have been beefed up. A solider CAN take down a Jedi now (before it was a no contest Jedi win) and Jedi who wishes to tie all his skills to UtF wastes all his talents to do so; effectively becoming a jack-of-all-trade PC but without the amazing talents that make scoundrels great pilots, Nobles great negoicators, or Scouts great, uh, scout.
I WILL give you that a PC with the Force IS more power than a non-Force user, but that's the breaks. No system can accurately represent Jedi and be balanced against non-Jedi. I mean, what's next, Fighters who are as powerful as wizards?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaxk Knight of Galt
Many people have brought up the point about Skill Focus: Use the Force. It was suggested that this feat have a level requirement of nine by a person I respect highly. We played it this way, and while the +5 bonus was still huge at level 9, it is no where near as disruptive as it was at level 1. For those new to the SAGA edition, Use the Force is a skill check that is often used against a target's defenses. Skill Focus: Use the Force ends up giving a +5 to hit at level 1 which is just way too good.
My personal HR for that is Skill Focus grants a feat bonus equal to your character level, to a maximum of +5. So a 1st level PC has a +1, 2nd level a +2, etc.
I've never played SAGA, but I will advise to stay the hell away from Revised. It's just a bad, bad ruleset, and everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves. It's a pretty-much-direct 3.5e port, with the magic items hacked out regardless of the effects on game balance, a half-hearted Force system grafted on, and with minimal if any playtesting done on the resulting mess.
I ran a long campaign in Revised, and while by the end I'd managed to cobble together a voluminous set of house rules that at least made the system function, it was a giant headache, and even with all the work I put into it, it still didn't feel like Star Wars, which was a big, big problem. Definitely not the sort of thing you want to be subjecting your 9 year old to.
Big-Time Caveat #1: I can't stomach 4e D&D. (However - If you do, more power to you.) I understand 4e wasn't quite the follow-on from SAGA that most people thought it would be - but if SAGA is just 4e-lite, then I already know it's not for me. While I'd be running the game for my son, if I can't stand the system, neither of us will be playing.
If 3.5 is New York City and 4E is Los Angeles then Star Wars Saga is Cincinnati (in a distance sense). Saga is far closer to 3.5, although it has a number of things that are "on the way" to 4E. IMO, they are among the best things about 4E.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
Saga!
It is far better and easier than Rev. It is not 4e, but you can see where 4e branched out from. Some part of me wishes they had kept parts of 4e more like Saga. The character generation system and progression is very easy, yet with choice.
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I liked Revised, but since I tasted Saga, I wouldn't be able to go back. It's just a lot easier to play and a lot more fun when you "get" the level of abstraction of the game's design.
Saga. I've heard people say that Saga is what 4e should've been.
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Most poisons are attacks vs fort, success generally means you're moved steps down the condition track. I don't remember rules for disease, but I would assume it would be like hunger/thirst, an endurance check, not an attack vs fort, and failure would move you a -1 persistent step down the condition track.
For the record, I would put SWSE as the best iteration of d20 ever. Only M&M comes close.
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