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It took a lot of previews of the upcoming edition to finally convince me but by about April 2008 I finally broke and ordered the core box set and an extra PHB. While there are a few things I don't like about 4E overall it is my D&D game of choice now (and I was a hardcore 3E fan up until about Mid 2007).
__________________ "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson 18th century English author.
Added myself into the very positive about 4e group but then played it and found it just wasn't to my taste. I really wanted to enjoy 4e and I was very much looking forward to an easier way to run and play the game. I still play in one game of 4e but my other D&D game switched to playing with the Pathfinder RPG beta.
I think we it came down to it as players all of us in our group just enjoyed our character options more with 3.5e characters. I rather like being able to pick what abilities my character will have and that these abilities will be relatively distinct from the other characters in the group.
Interesting enough, with the dropping of 4e and only 1-2 groups I game with going back to 3.5/Pathfinder one group started up a 2e Shadowrun game on our off week. We had a freakin' blast! I had nearly forgotten how awesome that old system was to play in. So if anything 4e seems to be opening up new and old horizons alike.
__________________ "Back off man, I'm a scientist." -Bill Murray, Ghostbusters.
"Let me talk to him, I speak crazy!" -Bruce M. Wang, Spycraft Wheelman.
Last edited by Liquidsabre; 2nd March 2009 at 02:40 PM..
Reason: Added a wee bit.
I did not vote, since my "choice" wasn't listed. At the first news of 4E coming I was very positive, and the design goals sounded very good as well. I bought the "races and classes" preview book, and liked it - mostly. But in early 2008, things started to change, and the more I saw of it, the more it sounded "just not right". I got my books, read them through, and shelved it. Too much work to change it for no real gain.
In my group 4E was either something people immediately loved or hated. And since its release the partisans have only hardened their positions. What troubles me is both sides evangelize like they are saving souls. As if our value as gamers depends on which edition we prefer. The whole edition war thing has made me want to find other role playing games to play because they aren't as loaded with controversy (except Vampire, there seems to be a division among White Wolf fans as well over this sort of thing).
The whole edition war thing has made me want to find other role playing games to play because they aren't as loaded with controversy (except Vampire, there seems to be a division among White Wolf fans as well over this sort of thing).
In the case of games like Champions and Call of Cthulhu, edition changes are much more incremental/evolutionary than wholesale changes and revolutionary. So naturally, you generate less controversy (though you still get some from time to time).
And Traveller fans are, by now, just plain used to wholesale changes per edition since that seem to be the only way the game can stay alive for some odd reason. Of course, don't mention TNE to any Classic partisans.
But I can see a point that D&D, when it comes to edition changes, is just different from other games. The shift from 1e to 2e was pretty much incremental. The games were extremely compatible in material. But 2e had the misfortune to the be the first AD&D edition that went away from Gygaxian prose and leadership. And whenever Gygaxian partisans, hero-worshippers, and even detractors were involved, even an incremental game change was sure to generate controversy. For some reason, gamers are easily polarized, particularly around big people in the development of the field.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
What troubles me is both sides evangelize like they are saving souls. As if our value as gamers depends on which edition we prefer. The whole edition war thing has made me want to find other role playing games to play because they aren't as loaded with controversy
Um... Remember a week or two ago, and a certain sock-puppet by the name of Murad?
Last I checked, you try to incite and perpetuate edition wars. So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe you.
Hahahahaha, oh wow, I can't imagine this being the "only" edition war.
Clearly some of you weren't around for Shadowrun 4th edition
(...What is it about fourth editions...?)
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Um... Remember a week or two ago, and a certain sock-puppet by the name of Murad?
Last I checked, you try to incite and perpetuate edition wars. So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe you.
-O
I admit nothing, but it is clear to me that Murad was a tongue-in-cheek commentary and attempt at humor.
That aside. I am sincere. I have no desire for edition wars. I don't care what edition anyone prefers. But I don't like being told by other gamers what edition I should prefer.
My overall opinion of the game was positive to start with and has remained so. That said, I have begun to notice the flaws in the system more, especially the tendency toward "grindspace" in certain types of combat and the weaknesses of the encounter/daily system. (I think it was a mistake not to include some means of recharging encounter powers, and am considering a house-rule on the subject.)
There is at least one magic item that recharges encounter powers. There was some discussion in the 4e home brew sub forum about using special events or 'in encounter mile stones' to enable getting them back.
The more I play 4e the more I like it. The more I realize that the mechanics are just a convenient way of doing what I want anyway. D&D 4e brought about an epiphany for me. All rules are gamy. And the simulation is only as good as how much the game can support my suspension of disbelief.
4e does that for me in a counter intuitive way. The rules make sense together as a game not as a simulation of the gears of reality. So I end up with a better intuitive idea of the way the 'game' works and can almost forget it as I play. Or better yet, as I try to enrapture a group of players in my own world.
It doesn't do this by being so simple that there are almost no rules there, but by realizing that some things can be collapsed into a 'gamey' structure and drop the details. My mind will fill in the blanks, almost without bidding.
Last edited by darjr; 3rd March 2009 at 06:42 AM..
I admit nothing, but it is clear to me that Murad was a tongue-in-cheek commentary and attempt at humor.
You got caught. Admitting it would be the mature thing to do, but kind of beside the point. You made an alt to troll and to foment edition wars.
Quote:
That aside. I am sincere. I have no desire for edition wars. I don't care what edition anyone prefers. But I don't like being told by other gamers what edition I should prefer.
Well, Step 1, if you're sincere, should be to stop stoking the fires of edition wars. "Tongue in cheek" or not.
I don't think one-liners in broken English about how "4e is for children," and about how a Muslim would hate Al-Qadim, followed up by a ban for personal attacks could possibly be constructive.
Well, Step 1, if you're sincere, should be to stop stoking the fires of edition wars. "Tongue in cheek" or not.
I don't think one-liners in broken English about how "4e is for children," and about how a Muslim would hate Al-Qadim, followed up by a ban for personal attacks could possibly be constructive.
-O
The tongue in cheek part means the intention wasn't to foment edition wars, but poke fun at them. Since Murad's strongest argument against 4E was it "is for children". I am sure Murad feels bad that his attempt at humor wasn't well recieved or that some took offense but it was obviously meant to be funny and not to hurt anyone's feelings.
Then we must agree to disagree on Mr. Murad's intentions and mine.
Last edited by ProfessorPain; 3rd March 2009 at 03:32 PM..
The tongue in cheek part means the intention wasn't to foment edition wars, but poke fun at them. Since Murad's strongest argument against 4E was it "is for children". I am sure Murad feels bad that his attempt at humor wasn't well recieved or that some took offense but it was obviously meant to be funny and not to hurt anyone's feelings.
Then we must agree to disagree on Mr. Murad's intentions and mine.
A can only assume he was modeled on Borat? Not the best of role models, even for a parody...
A can only assume he was modeled on Borat? Not the best of role models, even for a parody...
My wife speaks broken English, and I studied Arabic with Palestinians and Saudis. Borat's syntax isn't too far off actually. Kasakh is Turkic though, not arabic or thai. But I know that Cohen was speaking Hebrew in the movie Borat when he was supposed to be speaking Kazakh, so my guess is he modeled the Character after an Israeli relative or something.
Last edited by ProfessorPain; 3rd March 2009 at 08:04 PM..
Count me in as someone who never found Borat funny.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
I laughed about three times during Borat. But those three times, man did I laugh hard.
On topic, I went from somewhat negative to positive then back to negative after giving 4E a chance at the game table. My players and I really appreciate Pathfinder now.
__________________ Darrin Drader
Freelance Writer/Game Designer
Previously posting as Whisperfoot
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