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View Poll Results: Are you familiar with Eberron? Do you think Devas and Kalashtar overlap thematically?
I am familiar with Eberron, and I think Devas and Kalashtar are the same.
12
15.38%
I am familiar with Eberron, but I think Devas and Kalashtars are very different.
47
60.26%
I am not very familiar with Eberron, but I think Devas and Kalashtar are the same.
2
2.56%
I am not very familiar with Eberron, but I think Devas and Kalashtars are very different.
??? What is there in the premise of the question to disagree with???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmor
I think doctorhook was disagreeing with the idea that the Deva were stepping on the Kalashtar's toes.
Exactly.
Personally, I think (hope) that Eberron shouldn't (doesn't) equate Devas and Kalashtars, because personally I don't see anything more than a passing similarity between the two races. As I understand it, Devas are meant to be eternally reincarnated angel-people, while Kalashtar are naturally-psychic "aberrant-touched" humanoids with twin souls; reading through my copy of 3.5E's Eberron Campaign Setting, I didn't notice the word "reincarnation" anywhere in the Kalashtar entry on pages 16-18. Furthermore, a 3.5E Kalashtar's mindlink ability doesn't at all resemble the Deva's racial power in 4E; IIRC, the Deva gets to add a bonus to one roll, while the mindlink ability temporarily connects the Kalashtar to another being telepathically. (I realize that comparing a 3E ability to a 4E power is a case of apples versus oranges, but I'm just trying to show that there's no thematic connection.)
I think that Devas could easily exist in Eberron on their own, not only fulfilling any of the former roles of Aasimars, but also as world-bound angels. Sharn is a natural place for Devas to appear, because of its large manifest zone to the angel-filled plane of Syrania, through which angels (and radiant idols) have sometimes appeared. I can even imagine drawing some connection between Devas and Rakshasas (which are central to Eberron), the same way that 4E core seems to. What I can't imagine is that "angel people" should suddenly replace Eberron's iconic psionic player race; to me, this notion makes about as much sense as would someone suggesting that, "House Tharashk should be retconned as a Dragonborn dragonmarked house, because they both get a bonus to Strength!"
I apologize if I seem overly passionate about this issue, but it's a pet peeve of mine. I've seen this notion that Kalashtars should just be Devas in 4E, and I honestly do not understand it at all. What's similar about these two races? Why do some people feel that they overlap in such a significant way?
NOTE: I've tacked a poll onto this thread, just for interest's sake. Hopefully it will contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way.
According to KB (and spelled out a bit in Race of Eberron) Kalashtar quori spirits are immortal, and reform with other souls countless times, being "reborn" as different kalashtar who are mortals, but linked to the original spirit. In essence, "reincarnating" as new kalashtar.
However, I think that's a broad interpretation on the part of deva's, and I don't expect them to be the same as the kalashtar race (which IIRC will be in EPG).
According to KB (and spelled out a bit in Race of Eberron) Kalashtar quori spirits are immortal, and reform with other souls countless times, being "reborn" as different kalashtar who are mortals, but linked to the original spirit. In essence, "reincarnating" as new kalashtar.
That's a misleading description, though. Each kalashtar's soul is linked to a quori spirit, but the individual kalashtar aren't reincarnated in any recognisable sense. It's just that the quori spirit survives - children of the same sex as the kalashtar parent are connected to the same quori spirit, so it's more like a bloodline sharing a communal soul in addition to their own than the same soul being reincarnated over and over.
Now, there is something of a similarity in that kalashtar share memories and general opinions with others of the same lineage, which matches a little with the "memory of a thousand lifetimes" thing, but this is how Races of Eberron describes it:
The quori founders no longer exist as true individuals; instead they live within the communal subconscious of all of their physical descendants. Members of the lineage cannot actively use this mental bond, but they share the same dreamlike memories and typically have the same opinions and moral values. Two Vakri kalashtar will find that they can anticipate one another's actions, that they finish each other's sentences, and that they naturally gravitate towards the same sides of an argument. Kalashtar with the same lineage are not mental clones, however. Each individual's life experiences and human soul shape his or her character and personality, and alignment and behaviour vary from character to character.
I think this is distinct enough from the deva's reincarnations to qualify the two races as quite dissimilar.
__________________ Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, "I am not the kind of person I want to be." It must never sink into an assemblage of the self-satisfied.
My original query arose from curiosity - I like the kalashtar (as described in the ECS they are easily my favourite of the Eberron races, although I didn't like some of the direction they took with them from Races of Eberron onwards).
One of the neat things about Kalashtar was the idea that they could have a sort of shared race consciousness through their bond with the quori spirit they share.
The new Deva seemed to have something which mechanically would fit very well with Kalashtar, and the Deva 'past lives' seemed as if it could easily overlap with Kalashtar.
I rather hope that Kalashtar will be integrated with psionics (whenever they actually appear) in some suitable way - but also that they don't lose out on interesting thematic powers because those have already been handed in some form to Deva.
__________________ Plane Sailing
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Those were really bad poll options. There are similaities between the two. Sure they are not the exasct same but neityher are they very different.
This. Also, the street date for PH2 hasn't hit yet, and I don't think there's been extensive preview of Devas on D&DI (not a subscriber), so most of us don't have a lot of info on Devas.
It's possible, and it's also possible that my post comes across more strongly than I intended. I certainly do have strong feelings about this though, and I feel like I've been reading a lot of posts lately which assume that Devas make Kalashtars redundant, and that on this basis, Eberron should simply use Devas instead. YMMV.
I'm an unapologetic Eberron fan, and I am very attached to the setting. I don't react well to suggestions of removing or replacing an important element of the setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
However, I think that's a broad interpretation on the part of deva's, and I don't expect them to be the same as the kalashtar race (which IIRC will be in EPG).
Unfortunately, this is the issue: ATM, Kalashtar are not confirmed for the Eberron Player's Guide. All we've got is an off-hand comment by Keith Baker suggesting that Kalashtar might be statted up for 4E. Hints have not been readily forthcoming regarding which races (or even exactly how many) will appear in EPG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane Sailing
My original query arose from curiosity - I like the kalashtar (as described in the ECS they are easily my favourite of the Eberron races, although I didn't like some of the direction they took with them from Races of Eberron onwards).
One of the neat things about Kalashtar was the idea that they could have a sort of shared race consciousness through their bond with the quori spirit they share.
The new Deva seemed to have something which mechanically would fit very well with Kalashtar, and the Deva 'past lives' seemed as if it could easily overlap with Kalashtar.
I rather hope that Kalashtar will be integrated with psionics (whenever they actually appear) in some suitable way - but also that they don't lose out on interesting thematic powers because those have already been handed in some form to Deva.
Plane Sailing, I want to say to you that I agree with what you're saying here, and that this thread isn't intended as a hostile reaction towards you. Your curious comment about Devas and Kalashtar simply happened to be the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back" for me, because I've seen folks (apparently not fans of Eberron) swing this "Deva and Kalashtar are teh same!1!" shtick a lot over the past few months.
I hope that you won't take it personally, Plane Sailing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crothian
Those were really bad poll options. There are similaities between the two. Sure they are not the exasct same but neityher are they very different.
What would you have preferred?
EDIT: I think the poll covers all the important options, because I don't believe that one can care about how Kalashtar are represented and still be perfectly ambivalent towards whether or not Kalashtar are replaced by Deva. Additionally, the poll is not meant to be anything more than a conversation piece for this discussion, so please take it with at least as many grains of salt as you would any other poll here.
FWIW though, I'm willing to concede that the poll might not be optimally worded. (It's hard to come up with perfectly worded options; they limit the space and time you have to create the poll.)
Plane Sailing, I want to say to you that I agree with what you're saying here, and that this thread isn't intended as a hostile reaction towards you. Your curious comment about Devas and Kalashtar simply happened to be the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back" for me, because I've seen folks (apparently not fans of Eberron) swing this "Deva and Kalashtar are teh same!1!" shtick a lot over the past few months.
I hope that you won't take it personally, Plane Sailing.
Phew! I was worried that I'd accidentally said something to offend. FWIW I must be moving in the wrong circles recently because I though my question about Devas and Kalashtar was insightful and novel, and now I find it to be old hat
At least I can say for the Devas that they are an excellent replacement for the lackluster Aasimar of 3e
__________________ Plane Sailing
(Enworld Admin)
If you need to email me click here
"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
Phew! I was worried that I'd accidentally said something to offend. FWIW I must be moving in the wrong circles recently because I though my question about Devas and Kalashtar was insightful and novel, and now I find it to be old hat
lol To be fair, it's a lot more common in other places than here, it seems. For a while, it seemed like the "Popular Opinion of the Week" on WotC's Future Releases boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane Sailing
At least I can say for the Devas that they are an excellent replacement for the lackluster Aasimar of 3e
EDIT: I think the poll covers all the important options, because I don't believe that one can care about how Kalashtar are represented and still be perfectly ambivalent towards whether or not Kalashtar are replaced by Deva.
I disagree. Kalashtar are easily one of my favorite races in 3E Eberron (the other being Changelings) but I wouldn't have a problem if they were represented using 'reskinned' Devas if they're mechanically similar.
Reskinning is definitely one of my favorite tools in 4E both for pcs and for monsters.
I disagree. Kalashtar are easily one of my favorite races in 3E Eberron (the other being Changelings) but I wouldn't have a problem if they were represented using 'reskinned' Devas if they're mechanically similar.
Reskinning is definitely one of my favorite tools in 4E both for pcs and for monsters.
Reskinning is a great tool for D&D! However, in this case I believe that reskinning one as the other in Eberron would rob the setting of an interesting character concept, either Kalashtars or Devas. My premise is that Kalashtar and Devas aren't similar thematically, and therefore ought not to be similar mechanically, and furthermore shouldn't be combined or reskinned into a single race.
As for the poll, obviously it's getting a bad response, so if anyone has the power to delete it, please do so.
I also think the poll options are a bit too extreme. I don't really think that Devas and Kalashtar are identical, but I do think there is a lot of significant overlap. They have their differences, but they are still both races associated with good-aligned outsiders bound to human form in some way or another, inheriting memories of former versions of themselves in some manner. Devas and Kalashtar resemble each other far more than Kalashtar and Elan do, and they are more similar than Devas and Tieflings are, at the very least. In other words, they are far more similar to each other than they are to races that otherwise quite similar to one or the other.
I guess, I don't really expect WotC to say that Devas and Kalashtar are the same, and I am not encouraging them to make them the same, but I wouldn't complain if they did. No matter what, with Devas in the game they need to do something to establish a clearer difference between the two races and make Kalashtar a bit more unique again if they want to put that race into 4E. Certainly, since WotC isn't going to bring back the power point mechanic, they won't use power points to distinguish "innately psionic races" (which is good since it was a terrible idea to make certain races innately good at certain categories of classes), so they need to do something other than rely on the "psionic races are different" idea.
Kalashtar really need an even greater focus on the entire "shared spirit" idea, I think. The fact that Kalashtar have true supernatural bonds uniting their communities is the one significant thing that really makes them different from Devas, so that needs to be focused upon if Kalashtar are created as their own race.
Eberron's use of established core races as a mechanical means to deliver a race that has significantly different fluff is already well precedented. The Aerenal elves, the Drow, and the Talenta Halflings are all examples of races whose fluff is significantly different from core. Yet, the design team consistently defend the use of core mechanics and eschew the use of subraces and other mechanical modifications (often to an unnecessary extreme, in my opinion).
So, I can certainly see them using the Deva's core mechanic to support the Kalashtar's fluff, if it fits well. That said, it would not be hard to add Devas to the setting as a standalone race - Shavarrath is already a site of constant warfare between Angels, Demons and Devils, and another poster has already pointed out the manifest zone in Sharn.
My initial preference would be for Kalashtar mechanically designed to be Kalashtars, but I'd reserve judgment until I saw the product.
Eberron's use of established core races as a mechanical means to deliver a race that has significantly different fluff is already well precedented. The Aerenal elves, the Drow, and the Talenta Halflings are all examples of races whose fluff is significantly different from core. Yet, the design team consistently defend the use of core mechanics and eschew the use of subraces and other mechanical modifications (often to an unnecessary extreme, in my opinion).
So, I can certainly see them using the Deva's core mechanic to support the Kalashtar's fluff, if it fits well.
I agree. I guess I just don't see any impetus for separate mechanics beyond a reactionary grasp at the traditions of previous editions.
__________________ Not all bean-counting is of equal importance. ~Mallus
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I agree. I guess I just don't see any impetus for separate mechanics beyond a reactionary grasp at the traditions of previous editions.
I think it's obvious: deva and kalashtar are not the same. This isn't like saying halflings live in nomadic tribes and ride dinosaurs, but are still small, quick, et cetera.
Kalashtar don't reincarnate, and even if you forget about the specific flavour - they don't get benefits based on their dreamlike shared memories. The "Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes" ability isn't appropriate for them. Instead, they need something which approximates their psionic abilities from previous editions.
__________________ Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, "I am not the kind of person I want to be." It must never sink into an assemblage of the self-satisfied.
4e-based answer = "If the mechanics are/can be the same, then they're the same -- fluff doesn't matter."
Personal answer = "The flavor is different, so the mechanics should be different. The game experience should be different. Playing a reincarnated race should not be mechanically like playing a psychic race that shares a soul."
Jurassic Park Answer = "You spent so much time thinking about whether or not you could that you forgot about whether or not you should."
That last one probably applies to about 90% of 4e.
I think it's obvious: deva and kalashtar are not the same. This isn't like saying halflings live in nomadic tribes and ride dinosaurs, but are still small, quick, et cetera.
Kalashtar don't reincarnate, and even if you forget about the specific flavour - they don't get benefits based on their dreamlike shared memories. The "Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes" ability isn't appropriate for them. Instead, they need something which approximates their psionic abilities from previous editions.
I really think you understand what I am trying to say here.
You should check my post out, since I'm playing a Deva in Eberron. I feel both are different
, but I have a connection to most of the immortals, including the quori, the one I'm playing. I would like any advice on it. Thanks
Well, with the release of the EPG, this question has been answered. They're not similar.
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Last edited by Shroomy; 29th June 2009 at 04:37 AM..
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