General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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I am planning a 4e demo for my 3.5e Shackled City group. They are all experienced 3.5e players. There will be 5 PCs -- dragonborn fighter (or human wizard, he is waffling), eladrin paladin, halfling rogue, dwarf warlord, and eladrin ranger. I have back-up PCs that cover the other PHB classes and some of the other races.
The session should be about 6 hrs. I wanted to have a coherent, if somewhat plot-light, adventure. I definitely want to include an opening combat to get everyone used to the system, a battle that includes monsters and traps/hazards simultaneously, a skill challenge, and a boss fight against a couple of elite monsters (or one solo), probably with a hazard or trap thrown in.
For level 4 PCs, I am leaning towards classic D&D humanoids, either orcs or gnolls. I kind of want to throw in a dragon at the end, but an elite/solo demon or iconic D&D aberration might work as well.
Anyone do something like this before and have ideas? Any set pieces, encounters, or particular details you thought really showed off 4e's strengths well?
Either way, I will recommend against using a solo when neither you nor the players have any 4e experience. It's probably the trickiest part to get right.
My suggestion would be:
1 encounter involving minions, or perhaps, if you really want to show off, only with minions.
1 encounter with regular monsters and a hazard/trap
1 skill challenge
1 final battle with the boss, an elite something.
Sounds like a job for...Dungeon Delve! I haven't seen the book yet, but from what i've heard it's good for plopping into a campaign with little fuss.
Great advise, DD is perfect for this sort of thing, and if you're a DDI subsciber i think theu put one of the delve's up as a free preview. If you don't want to invest in the book before you are sure you'll use it for more then just the one demo.
This is a Demo. Which, in effect, is a sales pitch. You want to highlight the best qualities of the system, while trying to gloss over or avoid the problems. My suggestion? Avoid like hell a sense of grind, a "fight in a 8x8 room", highlight the uniqueness of monsters compared to 3e, etc. You sat in with your Shackled City game; what parts of the campaign seemed boring to the group, or garnered complaints? Do the exact opposite of that.
Put them in an encounter that's dynamic. The room is on fire. The tower is teetering and about to fall off a cliff into the ocean. They are in a giant clockwork device. Give it a different feel so that they immediately are outside of the Shackled City element of feeling somewhere static. The trap or hazard could be the things around the room, the set pieces, or it could be timed events (at the end of every round, something happens; a wall collapses, attacking anything that's adjacent, etc).
I would personally use gnolls. But that's just me. They're flavorful, there's a nice variety (especially with the gnoll-based adventure and the bestiary). Also because Orcs, with their "I heal myself" racial, can contribute to a bit of grind. You could also re-skin something. Kobolds and Kruthiks, reskinned, make great Xenomorphs; a battle with chest-bursting minions and skittery, acid-spitting kobolds is memorable, I'd say.
The characters you have is interesting. Potentially no controller, and 1.5 leaders (Cha paladins make decent secondary leaders). If you hit the party hard, they might find themselves in a "He's up! He's down!" battle. Especially if you target anyone who's not the paladin. Swarming them with minions when they have no controller might make an impression.
Further, look at that, two strikers (a rogue and a ranger). Whether he's an archer ranger or not, those two classes give themselves to mobility. An encounter in say, a large ruins, where you have tipped over columbs that bridge up to a second floor, and partial walls, might be useful. Especially to the two eladrin, who have those teleport powers; if they don't teleport, then they don't see it used in battle.
Additionally, strikers get bored with minions, because strikers are about doin' the damage. So, if you plan on swarming the party with minions, give the strikers something to shoot in the face. Like say, a big bad brute lurking just around the corner, as the party gets bogged down with minions, or a lurker that pops out.
If you wait just a week, PHB2 will be out. Now, I am not saying "Rush out and buy it", but it would offer some options (and even some options that 3.5 players haven't seen; the Avenger and Shaman, for instance). The Character Builder Demo on the WotC website can get you levels 1-3 (and since level 4 is just a stat boost and a feat, you can go up to 4).
As far as the Skill Challenge is concerned, be careful. There's errata about about various DCs for skill challenges. Also, presenting the skill challenge can be very difficult; it can come off very dumb, or very awkward for people who either don't "get it", or when the skill challenge itself is very dull. Make sure you present the skill challenge in a decent manner, or else it will come across very arbitrary.
Just to relate a bit to what Rechan was saying about waiting for PHB2, one of the big complaints from my 3.5 group of friends was "Where is the barbarian, where is the druid, where is the bard?" in queries about their favorite classes when I ran a demo for them.
I wish I had demoed at a higher level than I did (I did level 1), because options were few for the players. Level 4 has serious options available, including the magic items powers.
Level 4 is good, lots to do without being too much. If you can do powercards then go for it. Do the fights in big open spaces with interesting terrain.
I'd be wary of skill challanges and solos, both can be tricky to get right.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I've never run a 4e combat live, but I have been running several 4e games via PBP, so I am least familiar with the rules.
I actually don't expect the group to go to 4e. We are still in the midst of Shackled City, and everyone seems happy with it. This is just an interlude -- but you're right, I should try to sell it, you never know if I can sway their opinions...
Re: gnolls vs. orcs, I think I agree there, the new gnolls, with pack attack and some of their other abilities, really jumped out at me compared to some of the other classic D&D humanoids. And they make good opponents for level 4 PCs.
I did not pick the party make-up -- I briefly described the classes and races, and everyone chose these characters. Should I bring some of the previewed PHB2 classes to the game? I already have a swordmage prepared, just in case.
I did not pick the party make-up -- I briefly described the classes and races, and everyone chose these characters. Should I bring some of the previewed PHB2 classes to the game? I already have a swordmage prepared, just in case.
I would. Especially if you know if certain players gravitate to certain classes that aren't in the PHB.
The first session of the game went well. The party ended up consisting of four level 4 PCs: eladrin paladin, dwarf warlord, half-orc barbarian, and eladrin ranger.
Scene 1: The party was, of course, enjoying a drink in the Rusty Kettle, when they heard screams and laughing outside. The paladin rushes out, but notices the shadow of someone lurking just beside the door, and thus is not surprised by the waiting gnoll. The group faces off against 5 hyena minions, a gnoll huntmaster, a claw fighter, and a marauder mounted on a slaughterfiend hyena.
Pros: The party quickly got the hang of the rules, used some daily powers, learned the healing and dying rules (as I put down the warlord pretty early).
Cons: The minions didn't do much, I didn't get to use the mount abilities of the gnoll on the hyena, and my one piece of interesting terrain (a flaming cart with kegs of alcohol) never really got involved.
Scene 2: Learning that the gnolls took prisoners, the party tracks them through the night. This was a skill challenge, and the players took to it pretty readily. The paladin and barbarian were content to assist on the ranger's Nature and Perception checks. The warlord tried History, Heal, and other skills to support the party's efforts. The ranger was the lead guy on this part, but managed to throw in a Stealth check at the end of the skill challenge to try and bypass the gnoll rear guard and reach the temple without being seen.
Pros: Actually, an all-around success, and the first I've had with skill challenges, thus far. The players, especially the warlord and ranger, were pretty creative and descriptive with their skills.
Cons: The paladin and barbarian (partly my fault) lacked obvious skills to contribute to the skill challenge.
Scene 3: The party tracks the gnolls to an ancient temple dedicated to demon worship. In the first room, they walk into an area with two obvious gnoll guards (another archer is hiding) and four pillars. The minute they enter the room, they trigger a souped up magic crossbow turret trap, that peppers them with elemental attacks each round. However, they decide to absorb the damage and trade blows with the gnolls, instead of retreating, or actively locating a trap mechanism. Several PCs yo-yo between being up and being unconscious, but they finally win out, but at a serious loss of healing surges.
Pros: The trap was deadly, maybe too deadly, but it punished the PCs for sticking in the fight.
Cons: There was less movement in this fight than I had hoped.
Scene 4: In the next room, after resting, the party encounters a very large area, protected by floating skulls. The ranger discerns that the central part of the chamber is littered with trigger plates, so they basically run through the room along the walls, shutting the door at the other end behind them. Some of the floating skulls are minions that explode when defeated, but instead of switching to ranged attacks, they mow through them with melee attacks. The last three skulls are artillery/controller types, who hit the PCs with damage and status effects, but they ignore them and jam the door closed (and the skull's mage hand-like ability cannot push hard enough to open the doors). Leaving these guys behind proves costly, however.
Pros: The party took a largely non-combat approach to this encounter -- run like heck through the room, avoid the trapped floor areas, and shut the door behind them. It worked!
Scene 5: The party catches up with the gnoll leader and his cacklefiend hyena pet. He is about to sacrifice the last villager, a dwarf maiden, when the PCs charge in. Through readied actions and a couple of dailies, the cacklefiend hyena goes down in 2 rounds. The gnoll demonic scourge is ready to wreak havoc -- but then suddenly tentacles appear from a large sacrificial pit in the center of the room, and drag the gnoll in! One round later, the party is facing off against a level 6 solo version of a balhannoth -- which proves a bit too much for the party (I might have overdone it). But the biggest problem is indecision in the party -- the barbarian and warlord seem prepared to fight this thing, while the ranger and paladin are ready to retreat with the lone surviving villager. It ends with a retreat, the warlord carrying the unconscious barbarian and the paladin at 5 hp. They manage to outfox the stupid balhannoth just enough to get outside of its blindsight range, and it is content to return to feasting on the gnoll and hyena. But then they have to run through the room with the skulls! Somehow they survive.
Pros: The solo encounter was scary. I think their resources were somewhat depleted, and while it did not end as expected, the tension of running out and barely surviving was pretty good.
Cons: Solos are too hard to hit, I think. That, or the PCs needed to coordinate better -- more flanking, more Furious Smash by the warlord to set up the barbarian's Avalanche and Howling Strikes, the paladin waited too long to mark, etc.
So for session 2 of the playtest, they wanted to see the highest levels of play -- so I'll be pulling out all the stops and we'll be playing 26th level PCs! I am excited.
Two of the players, the paladin and ranger, want to play 26th level versions of their characters. The warlord will be playing a fighter, and the barbarian will be playing a melee cleric. A fifth player might be joining, and will probably play a wizard.
Any suggestions, thoughts, etc? I thought I might connect the two sessions thematically by having them face off against Yeenoghu -- but again, I am unsure about the solo fights at this point. Yeenoghu seems nasty, but in many ways more manageable than the balhannoth -- that creature, with its abilities as written, is killer.
So for session 2 of the playtest, they wanted to see the highest levels of play -- so I'll be pulling out all the stops and we'll be playing 26th level PCs! I am excited.
Two of the players, the paladin and ranger, want to play 26th level versions of their characters. The warlord will be playing a fighter, and the barbarian will be playing a melee cleric. A fifth player might be joining, and will probably play a wizard.
Any suggestions, thoughts, etc? I thought I might connect the two sessions thematically by having them face off against Yeenoghu -- but again, I am unsure about the solo fights at this point. Yeenoghu seems nasty, but in many ways more manageable than the balhannoth -- that creature, with its abilities as written, is killer.
The other idea is a classic dragon's lair.
The difference between 4 and 26 are staggering. Perhaps a pit stop in the paragon level first. Paragon offers up a lot more complexity but doesn't go whole hog like Epic does. Just a suggestion.
The difference between 4 and 26 are staggering. Perhaps a pit stop in the paragon level first. Paragon offers up a lot more complexity but doesn't go whole hog like Epic does. Just a suggestion.
This.
I played in an 11th level game Saturday. There were two sheets of powers.
When you take in your Paragon Path powers, your Epic Destiny powers, that's a lot. Especially just processing it. Expect people to flip through their character sheets several times during their round, just trying to keep track of everything.
Appreciate the feedback. I would schedule a third session, but our group only budgeted two special sessions to the 4e dry run -- we're still pretty focused on our 3.5e Shackled City game.
I am not too worried about the number of powers -- they seemed to catch on pretty fast. And one player suggested I send out the playtest PCs ahead of time so they can "study", so I'll be doing this.
I will also be building PCs with the simpler feats, ones that add static bonuses to attacks, damage, defenses, etc. And I am giving them very simple magic items, for the time being -- the big three, with one of them having a power/property. I figure the class powers will be enough to keep them busy, though I might give them another magic item with a daily power, like their armor.
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