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Unless of course they are not 'concepts' but rather supernatural intelligences drawing power from those concepts. For instance a God of Fire doesn't necessarily control Primordials of Fire (such as Imix or Surtur) and vice versa, so there is no reason to assume that a God of Fire is 'fire' itself.
Again, that boils down to how precisely you define what a god or similar being actually is on a basic level in your own campaign setting.
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Likewise your idea doesn't allow for the possibility of two Gods of Fire coexisting simultaneously.
It hasn't stopped me before. Imix and Kossuth just to pick a pair, both gain worship as 'gods of fire', and both openly claim to be just that. Assuming for the moment that they both are indeed gods of fire, and physically embody that concept -indeed -are- that concept itself- you might be right, except despite what they might claim, or their worshippers' believe, they're each embodying different aspects of the same concept.
Secondly, even if they embody the exact same concept like two deities created from the gestalt worship and belief of mortals on two different worlds on the material plane, I still see little reason to not allow one of them to exist, or have them be the same thing like you would imply. They might be the same concept, but the same concept as envisioned and viewed through the lens of devotion of two perhaps very different cultures.
Another example: demons being a physical manifestation of malignant chaos hasn't stopped the Abyss from being populated with an uncountable or infinite number of them. There's no limitation imposed at all like what you mentioned. It's a very different style than your own, but I've never come across anything restrictive or limiting (rather quite the opposite).
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I wouldn't call killing gods something that is inherently gamist. I am big fan of ancient mythology, and I tend to model my campaigns and campaign settings on mythology. As a result, while gods are incredibly powerful, they are like really, really, powerful mortals. They can be defeated or even killed by powerful mortals, demons, or spirits. As such, having gods at a power level where they can be actually killed by the PCs is desirable for me on the basis of flavor and narrative. Besides, if you can't kill gods, how do you have the PCs fight against god-killing abominations of the likes of the Midgard Serpent and Fenrir? I like the idea of the PCs taking a crack at one of those. Of course, I think Thor is an appropriate character to model an epic level PC on.
As for the opening post, I have always hated the idea that gods draw power from their worshipers. To answer the main question though, I think gods are appropriate threats for characters in the upper end of the epic tier, and should primarily be elite or solo creatures.
Well, speaking of Midgard Serpent and Fenrir... I wouldn't. Seriously. I know that fighting gods and Elder Evils in their "True Forms" became fashionable once again in 3E, but even in the most Epic campaigns in my group, fighting deities (and seeing deities as "high-level mortals") has always felt alien and, well, silly. Avatars are another matter, so I agree with Shemeska on this one.
The rules for deities just didn't work in 3E, and I don't think 4E managed a better job in that regard. Of course, your opinion may vary.
In the spirit of form follows function, I feel like these guys should be statted as appropriate to where we might see them used in a game.
WotC's choice of Level 35 Solo for Tiamat and Vecna are aimed at making these gods suitable for the last encounter of a campaign, which seems like a reasonable place.
Some gods should be less powerful than that, simply because we expect to fight them along with suitable minions. It's hard to imagine facing Bane or Ioun in a five-on-one combat. Either Lower the levels on such gods or make them elites to free up room in the XP budget for their allies.
Other Gods don't seem especially suited for that Ultimate encounter. Torog and Bahamut, for example, are guardians of a sort, so I'd expect to fight them earlier in the epic tier, and then spend the rest of the campaign dealing with whatever it was that they were guarding in the first place. So perhaps level 30 solo (with the aim of fighting them at 26th level)
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In my campaign all of the gods are about 15th level, but they each have 100,000 times as many hit points as other 15th level monsters do. The PC's always get bored trying to kill them.
Again, that boils down to how precisely you define what a god or similar being actually is on a basic level in your own campaign setting.
Absolutely.
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It hasn't stopped me before. Imix and Kossuth just to pick a pair, both gain worship as 'gods of fire', and both openly claim to be just that. Assuming for the moment that they both are indeed gods of fire, and physically embody that concept -indeed -are- that concept itself- you might be right, except despite what they might claim, or their worshippers' believe, they're each embodying different aspects of the same concept.
So neither is (the ultimate expression of) 'Fire' itself. So you are not battling against a 'concept' anymore than you would be facing a fire elemental.
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Secondly, even if they embody the exact same concept like two deities created from the gestalt worship and belief of mortals on two different worlds on the material plane, I still see little reason to not allow one of them to exist, or have them be the same thing like you would imply. They might be the same concept, but the same concept as envisioned and viewed through the lens of devotion of two perhaps very different cultures.
But in universal terms neither would be 'fire' itself, thats the point I am making. You seem against the idea of slaying a god because you can't kill 'fire' (for example). But there may well be a dozen such beings linked to fire that are gods of fire, but not fire itself. So I am just wondering where and when it is you flip the switch to turn off the stats?
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Another example: demons being a physical manifestation of malignant chaos hasn't stopped the Abyss from being populated with an uncountable or infinite number of them.
Chaos does have a tendency to diversify.
However I am not sure what you are suggesting here, I doubt its that Demons should have no stats because they are the physical manifestations of malignant chaos.
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There's no limitation imposed at all like what you mentioned. It's a very different style than your own, but I've never come across anything restrictive or limiting (rather quite the opposite).
Did you know that 4E Gods have an accompanying sidebar that basically amounts to a handful of suggested stipulations PCs have to meet to even have a chance of (properly) defeating them?
Sounds a bit like what you suggested in your first post...albeit with stats after the PCs meet one or more stipulations.
I guess weaker demigods should typically be something like 30th level elites?
As far as I can tell the whole thing is flexible along the following lines:
Solo 30 = Elite 35 (+5) = Standard 39 (+9) = Minion 47 (+17)
As for a rough hierarchy I'd suggest:
(Hero-deity = 17-21 Solo)
Quasi-deity = 22-26 Solo
Demi-deity = 27-31 Solo
Lesser Deity = 32-36 Solo
Greater Deity = 37-41 Solo
I'm thinking Avatars should maybe be ten levels lower, with Aspects 20 levels lower (adjusted for Elite/Standard/Minion as appropriate). Although the official rules don't abide by this (or any such method)*.
So for instance You could face Vecna (Solo 35) his Avatar(s) (Standard 34) and his Aspect(s) (Minion 32) in the same encounter.
*I think in the Monster Manual Orcus is Solo 33, but his Aspect is Elite 24, while in the Draconomicon, Tiamat (Solo 35) has a Solo 17 Aspect.
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Originally Posted by S'mon
BTW I can imagine in certain campaigns a god might be encountered at the Heroic tier as a 10th level Solo.
You could certainly have an Aspect of a Deity that was a 10th-level Solo encounter. Its a very flexible system.
If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars.
This.
I would never consider the published stats to be that of the true god itself.
That might work for campaign settings such as Forgotten Realms, where gods and epic adventurers routinely (well...) kill off troublesome gods and take their stuff (their portfolios).
The farthest I would be willing to stretch it is that while you can't fight a God, you can work to diminish its influence. Basically, reduce the faith and worship directed at it.
And it is here I can see a place for the Avatars (the level 35 monsters that WotC have statted up). Instead of spending decades converting the masses away from worshipping a certain god, it can be a more appropriate action for epic heroes to fight and defeat the god's avatar to acomplish the same thing.
The god won't be destroyed, but the defeat of the avatar could mean a serious blow to the faith of the populace, which pretty much amounts to the same thing.
Of course, if or when WotC decide to publish an Immortals Tier Handbook (player character options for levels 31-40), they need to retcon the existing stats as not-quite-the-god anyway...
Actually, by the time they reach 30th level, the PCs are very likely to be immortals themselves. You can even start a campaign after that where the new PCs worship the old PCs.
The farthest I would be willing to stretch it is that while you can't fight a God, you can work to diminish its influence. Basically, reduce the faith and worship directed at it.
And it is here I can see a place for the Avatars (the level 35 monsters that WotC have statted up). Instead of spending decades converting the masses away from worshipping a certain god, it can be a more appropriate action for epic heroes to fight and defeat the god's avatar to acomplish the same thing.
The god won't be destroyed, but the defeat of the avatar could mean a serious blow to the faith of the populace, which pretty much amounts to the same thing.
If it amounts to the same thing as destroying a god then I don't really see much difference in allowing the god to be destroyed anyway.
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Originally Posted by CapnZapp
Of course, if or when WotC decide to publish an Immortals Tier Handbook (player character options for levels 31-40), they need to retcon the existing stats as not-quite-the-god anyway...
Not really...and for the record I do plan to release character options for Levels 31-50 (31-40 = Legendary Tier, 41-50 = Immortal Tier). I have ideas for up to 80th-level, but I don't think I'll be able to create enough monsters beyond 55th-level to make tiers beyond the Immortal Tier worthwhile.
The existing stats are perfectly fine as they are. When individual PCs are as powerful as Vecna or Tiamat (for example) then five of them won't see Vecna or Tiamat as anything more than a standard opponent (or about Level 44 I estimate). Chances are they will be facing Solo opponents more akin to Elder Gods and True Primordials at that juncture.
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Of course, I know that already - we've met before (well, virtually) discussing the very same topic in 3E. My opinion hasn't changed, and I don't get tired mentioning it whenever appropriate.
Imho, if a being deserves being called a 'God' it shouldn't be possible to be defeated by anything less than a 'God'. Otherwise it's just some incredibly powerful being that aspires to become a 'God', like say, several of the top-tier demon/devil lords.
Me too... To me a true god isn't just some dude with really cool moves and bolts and such.
It's more like a swirling cloud of sentience, existing everywhere at the same time.
You can't kill it, and you can't become it. (Not unless you give up your mortal - humanoid - form, and the petty desires that go with it, at least)
Thus I will treat any monster WotC calls a "god" it's favored avatar or something.
The only way to eradicate a god would be, by definition, to have 1) nobody believing in it and 2) nobody even knowing it existed.
A tall order to be sure, but nothing a group of Epic heroes can't accomplish, given a suitably long campaign arc!
But most importantly: you can't accomplish it simply by smashing its face in.
That's so incredibly simplistic and debasing to the entire concept, in my honest opinion.
I do realize my vision isn't shared by WotC, however. As long as it remains easy to say "that wasn't the god you just offed, only its personal champion" I don't have much of a problem though.
That's so incredibly simplistic and debasing to the entire concept, in my honest opinion.
Yet it's a lot closer to many real world mythologies than is your approach. Myths don't present (eg) the Norse gods as anything like these omnipresent unkillable diffuse energy beings of yours. Why should WotC?
That said, I have no problem with settings where gods never appear and their existence is moot, as in REH's Conan stories. Or you could have a setting where gods only appear obliquely, through visions and auguries. But there's tons of respectable precedent for the alternative.
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