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Thanks, I enjoy the discussion too. This is the kind of stuff we do all day--in fact, when new materials come out, we watch everyone on the boards have all of the same discussions we had months and months before. It does sometimes get challenging because people have been very touchy about perceived insults to their preferred edition, even when it's just having a frank discussion about mechanics.
I enjoy the discussion too. The merits and flaws of each edition always make for interesting reads. Good times
I was going to post more, but I think I'm just re-hashing previous points
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Moridin, how much actual play do rituals get, in your experience/research? Right now, they don't see much use in my game, because of the casting time and the game is currently combat heavy.
My campaign actually involves discovering some "magic sources" (the PCs think the campaign is about Portals, but that's just the manifestation of the discovery of power sources by some bad guys, and them thinking the main use is for creating portals). I'm thinking, right now, that these power sources could speed up the casting of some rituals, but only if you take a feat or skill that allows you to do so. (anyone read Wormworld from Rifts? that's going to be the KEY power source, as the BBEG have discovered something similar across the univers, and at some point will try to take over wormworld to have the ultimate power source).
I give out ritual ingredients all the time in various forms. Sometimes they are simply the normal Alchemical Reagents or Sanctified Incense, etc. But other times they take other forms that apply to specific Rituals or types of Rituals.
But I think you could also give out some magic items that I'll call "Ritual Foci". If you use such a focus it could lower or negate the cost of a ritual. In your example above maybe there is a "Gossamer Shroud" that negates the cost of the Wizard's Curtain Ritual. That might be a cool thing to find in a treasure trove.
I do this kind of thing all the time. I did it in 1E, 2E, 3E and now I will do it for 4E.
I recall a great set of PDFs for 3.x by Ronin Arts (Phil Reed) called 101 Spell Components and 101 Divine Spell Components. They had the kinds of ideas that would be great for Rituals and decreasing things like Ritual casting times, duration, effect, etc.
I'm not sure where to get these now, since Phil doesn't use RPGNow.com anymore. I think he's put his PDFs at yourgamesnow.com after the whole dtrpg/rpgnow merger drama.
I like the idea of using magical foci (one shot or something more permanent), monster parts, magical monster parts (or residuum laced monster stuff).
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Having all rituals being available as complexity 4 skill challenges still means that *at best* it would take 10 rounds to complete, probably more and with a good chance of the ritual failing completely.
Wait, I may be misunderstanding you. Are you saying that it would be a complexity 4 skill challenge that only one person (the ritual caster) could participate in?
If yes, then I pity that poor wizard's player. I'm going to spend the entire fight doing nothing but making Arcana checks. That doesn't sound like interesting options, that sounds like, "You, go sit in the corner." Yes, he could stop every few rounds to toss a fireball, or put up a wall...but that's one more round that the skill challenge isn't being worked toward. Something we've seen with traps that require multiple successes to disable is that it basically sends one player to the corner for a large chunk of the fight, and heaven forbid you fail a check or two. If this is what you mean, then I can understand why you'd think that it would be hard to "bust" an encounter (although it's not even encounters I'm worried about, as much as the flow of the adventure); I think this would be terrifically boring for the PC in question, though.
If you're saying that no, anyone could participate, three characters could fail a skill challenge in one round, or complete it in a little over 2 rounds at best (assuming they spend action points to make multiple skill checks). I can think of tons of ways this can bust adventures/encounters. For example, the jailbreak adventure. Break in, free your buddy, escape. Teleport rituals as skill challenges make that "break in, free your buddy, hold the bad guys off for a couple of rounds and avoid 1/3rd of the adventure." Now, that might be an interesting scene in and of itself, but if you want that option to be out there then you're better off putting it out there for that instance (a scroll that can be cast as a skill challenge) rather than make it something that can be done every. single. time. It's really hard to put the rabbit back in the hat. Maybe that's why I favor the more conservative rules with more aggressive exceptions approach.
Again, I'm not saying that I don't think that allowing rituals to be performed as a skill challenge is a bad idea, I just don't like it as a blanket rule. I do like it as something that can come up from time to time. However, the thing to remember about blanket rules is that every book that gets released, every new ritual that comes into existence, has the potential to test the limits of that blanket rule, and sometimes even break things. That's a big thing you have to think about when doing game design like this--how it's going to work with things going forward, and how it's going to interact with a near-infinite number of options.
Could it make for some interesting, tense scenes to allow rituals to be used as a skill challenge? Absolutely. I just think that if you make it a blanket rule, you're back to the whole "magic can solve any of our problems" issue.
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Moridin, how much actual play do rituals get, in your experience/research? Right now, they don't see much use in my game, because of the casting time and the game is currently combat heavy.
I'd say we average about 1 ritual's use per session, sometimes none (if it's a combat heavy session) or sometimes 2-3. That's obviously anecdotal, since I run one game and play in another, but that seems to be consistent with other games being run around here. I also feel like that's an acceptable amount of use.
I'll never forget our Age of Worms campaign's warlock. He spent the last 3 adventures doing nothing but casting spells off of scrolls, searching out new spells in various splatbooks to solve the problems in the adventures, etc. He ceased to be a warlock as you would think of them by default, and instead became a spellcaster who did nothing but use scrolls to solve every situation (combat or otherwise). I think you have to be conscious, especially this early in the edition's lifespan, of how slippery the slope of letting magic solve your problems can be.
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Wait, I may be misunderstanding you. Are you saying that it would be a complexity 4 skill challenge that only one person (the ritual caster) could participate in?
If yes, then I pity that poor wizard's player. I'm going to spend the entire fight doing nothing but making Arcana checks. That doesn't sound like interesting options, that sounds like, "You, go sit in the corner.
Go back and read my post then.
Standard action to make an easy check
Move action to make a moderate check
Minor action to make a hard check
It means the wizard can still participate in stuff to a greater or lesser extent depending upon how well the ritual is going, how desperate things are at the moment etc.
Won't bust an encounter. Gives more interesting options than just 'kill everything before you can do a ritual" or "hide in a room and lock the door and hope they can't break in before you complete a ritual".
Heck, it is just a variation on the very scheme used in Thunderspire Mountain fight against the warlock gnoll!
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My apologies. That is an interesting solution to "go sit in the corner." Can the wizard move while this ritual is going on, and if so, how far? Can the wizard choose not to make a check on its turn without interrupting the ritual? What happens when you have rituals that require you to perform another action in a set amount of time, like Magic Circle? You'll want to figure all of these things out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane Sailing
Won't bust an encounter. Gives more interesting options than just 'kill everything before you can do a ritual" or "hide in a room and lock the door and hope they can't break in before you complete a ritual".
It also cuts off other interesting choices. If the players can teleport away, they won't bother trying to escape through the dungeons beneath the castle, losing their pursuers in a foot chase, capturing a hostage and trying to bargain for their lives, etc. When "get away to a safe location where we can recuperate" is one of the options, I think it very often becomes THE option. I think it's OK if that happens every now and then--like I say, a scroll that can be used as a skill challenge is a great idea because it puts that option in the players' hands, but still gives the DM control over how often that happens. Furthermore, putting it in the game in finite amounts also gives the players another layer of choice: do we use this now, or do we save it for another time?
Maybe it's just me, but I don't like when "leave the dungeon" is the best option, and always allowing rituals to be used as a skill challenge would really facilitate that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane Sailing
Heck, it is just a variation on the very scheme used in Thunderspire Mountain fight against the warlock gnoll!
That's true...but once again, that's a specific encounter. That's not a blanket rule covering every possible situation.
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Player's Handbook, PHB299
Unless a ritual specifies otherwise, up to four of your allies can help you perform a ritual. [...] Your allies can assist you in two ways. First, if the ritual requires spending healing surges or some other resource, willing allies can contribute those resources.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't like when "leave the dungeon" is the best option, and always allowing rituals to be used as a skill challenge would really facilitate that.
I think... this sounds a bit like an overreaction from previous editions, especially 3E/3.5E. Let me explain why:
Long rests (which you can only take outside a dungeon) were king, due to the power of spells - but extended rests are much less powerful now, hence the need for getting out to get an extended rest decreases.
It's a one-way teleport - getting out might work, getting in is then very hard - unlike the teleport spell before, so it is a retreat as a steep cost: You give up a lot of ground you gained by getting into the dungeon in the first place. And the next circle you can dial might not be that close. And everybody will be alerted - and you might even be traced... getting these undeads right into your sanctuary? Nasty.
Rituals cost money, so it's already a bit like the scroll situation you described, these won't be thrown around wily-nily.
Chance of failure. Rituals can be hard - even with your bog-standard ritual you can fail - under pressure, even more so. In fact, taking the chance to do a ritual will force the party to stay in the same place, hence faciliating exactly the situations you described.
In short, it reads more like dialling the DHD in Stargate, due to the very changed nature of all teleportation rituals. And these scenes were a source of tension (though it got a bit repetitive - but so does fleeing the dungeon on foot each time).
To sum up, I think the problem is not as bad as you described and that it can also open up new possibilities.
I kind of like the idea of power ingredients myself... Certain things when used in rituals can give you the option for using them as a skill challenge. Kind of akin to the scroll idea, but a little more open I think. If the characters know they can use say Hydra Teeth to modify certain levels of ritual in a certain way, they might decide it's time to go hunting Hydra. It gives you another adventure avenue.
One of the ideas that I'm currently toying with is allowing ritual casters to hang a ritual like Merlin hung spells in the Amber books in order to introduce an additional level of strategy to my 4e games.
A ritual caster can only hang one ritual at a time.
When you hang a ritual you pay the component costs and spend the usual time required to use a ritual. You also pay a healing surge.
All decisions about the ritual must be made during the hanging process.
If you replace a hung ritual with another one you still lose the components associated with the first ritual.
Casting a hung ritual is always a standard action.
Of course this system would require a certain amount of DM adjudication to account for different rituals, but I'm largely okay with that.
I guess I understand Moridin... once we allow ANY ritual to be cast within combat boundaries (even pre-casting), future ritual design will suffer serious limitation, having to keep that option in mind.
I think Moridin fears the possibilty that, in the future, there will be a ritual powerfull enough that casting it inside a combat will possibly break the game.
IMO, the "best" example we have so far is probably Teleport - and as Lord Tirian showed, it's not a good example. =/
To solve this issue, I'd rather introduce a feat or magic item or scroll in a case by case basis that allowed you to cast a single specific ritual (or set of rituals) once per day, like a feat to use Comprehend Languages as a minor action, or a magic key you "enchanted" with Knock or a special stone or crystal you activated to teleport back home (and nowhere else)...
Standard action to make an easy check
Move action to make a moderate check
Minor action to make a hard check
It means the wizard can still participate in stuff to a greater or lesser extent depending upon how well the ritual is going, how desperate things are at the moment etc.
That is interesting. I participated in an adventure recently where my Wizard was tied up for the entirety of a 3-round combat performing a (story-specific) ritual, and it did suck: I love combat and was left out of it. I'll suggest your system to my DM for future use...
Is anyone else having problems with the link to the new excerpt's pdf file?
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It does sometimes get challenging because people have been very touchy about perceived insults to their preferred edition, even when it's just having a frank discussion about mechanics.
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