Dragon Magazine Design and Development: The Deva - Page 3

Klaus · 17th March 2009, 02:36 PM

Devas with +2 Int/Wis can devote more points to either Str or Cha to make decent paladins, and that +2 Int means their Reflex defense won't suck. Not all ability scores need to be for the class' main stat. A Deva paladin can begin with 18 Str or Cha and 16 Wis without taxing the other abilities much. They can be 18 Str/16 Int warlords, 20 Wis/15 Str or Cha clerics, 18 Dex/16 Wis rangers (or 18 Str and take chainmail proficiency) or 18 Str/16Wis fighters.

Lojaan · 17th March 2009, 02:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Lord Sessadore

Just a little correction here - halfling base speed is 6, so halflings in heavy armor have speed 5, just like most people. So halflings do make reasonable paladins.

Holy crap. You're right.

I feel so ashamed.

MaximumHavoc · 17th March 2009, 07:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Lojaan

Tieflings make great infernalocks due to hellfire blood.

and

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Originally Posted by RickVigorous

Thanks to hellfire blood, tieflings make good infernal and star warlocks. There are a lot of fire and fear powers between those two pacts, and so with hellfire blood a starting Con 16/Int 16/Cha 16 is fine.

phb encounter attack spells
level 1, 2 infernal spells, none with fire or fear keyword
level 13, 2 infernal spells, none with fire or fear keyword
level 17, 1 infernal spell, none with fire or fear keyword
level 23, 1 infernal spell, none with fire or fear keyword

phb daily attack spells
level 9, 1 infernal spell, none with fire or fear keyword
level 20, 1 infernal spell, none with fire or fear keyword
level 25, 1 infernal spell, none with fire or fear keyword

also note that infernal warlocks get a grand total of 2 spells with the fear keyword.

now, compare that to a race with +2 con (e.g., half-elf), which enjoys a boost to EVERY infernal warlock spell.

finally, remember that a tiefling has to spend a feat for hellfire blood, as opposed to a +2 con race not having to spend a feat for the better benefit.

____________________

back on topic:

now that 4e has introduced more divine classes, we need not confine ourselves to the old association of devas and paladins.

Spatula · 17th March 2009, 09:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Klaus

Devas with +2 Int/Wis can devote more points to either Str or Cha to make decent paladins, and that +2 Int means their Reflex defense won't suck. Not all ability scores need to be for the class' main stat. A Deva paladin can begin with 18 Str or Cha and 16 Wis without taxing the other abilities much.

18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8? That seems pretty taxing to me. I guess my point is the original design intent was for them to make kick-ass paladins, and they don't. They make OK paladins, but strangely enough, tieflings make better paladins... It almost seems like they tailored devas to be best for the PHB2 divine classes at the expense of having them better suited for the (IMO more iconic) PHB1 divine classes. But it's a minor issue, to be sure.

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Originally Posted by ppaladin123

I'm betting the kalashtar will be in the Eberron Player's Guide and will be +2 Wis, +2 Cha.

Possibly, but that shouldn't be a factor, really.

Cadfan · 17th March 2009, 11:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

Not the issue at all.

The mismatch issue is when the ability scores support un-mentioned classes better than mentioned classes.

I stand by everything I said.

15 possible combinations of two ability scores. Two ability score combinations per class, minimum. 16 PHB classes so far.

A race that's thematically suited for shtick X is going to inevitably succeed at least some shtick Y for which its thematically unsuited.

And that's only a problem if you don't like it when a race is good at something its thematically unsuited for. Or I guess if you want to change the theme of each race to make it thematically suited to do almost anything, which seems to be what you want.

**Plane Sailing** · 18th March 2009, 01:27 AM

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense.

Furthermore, don't presume (as per your post I was originally responding to) to tell other people what they are thinking - it is rude behaviour and our tolerance for it is decreasing.

Talk about what you think by all means. Don't make assertions about what other people are thinking.

Thanks

pawsplay · 18th March 2009, 04:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Cadfan

And that's only a problem if you don't like it when a race is good at something its thematically unsuited for.

While I'm willing to accept an oddity now and then, for the most part, when I see a mismatch, I tend to think there must be something between how the ability scores are defined, how the race is described, and what the class requires, that is not really coherent.

Hawke · 18th March 2009, 05:53 AM

I read this D&D

eva prior to reading the PHB2 entry and found I was really disappointed with the final result.

Devas that are actually beautiful as described in the article did not come across that way in the art. First, dropping the wings for "prefers armor with wings" really ended up being a cop out. In addition, the flat big giant make-up isn't any sort of mystical beauty as I would imagine. The idea that they are completely immobile when not interacting seems to really hurt the feeling.

Oh well, I definitely will be reflavoring them with complex skin designs (thin, super complex) and having small wings as part of their look.

I'm just really shocked seeing them devolve so thoroughly visually from a concept of angelic beauty and detached goodness through lifetimes of reincarnation to a make-up job that looks like a bad star trek alien.

Cadfan · 18th March 2009, 06:45 AM

I'm still pretty sure that I'm right.

Math says that you can't have a complete lack of overlap. If it bothers you when a class is good at something its not called out as excelling at, then obviously you've got to declare that any race who's ability score bonuses matches a class is therefore thematically suited for it. There's no other option.

Even beyond the math, since ability scores (particularly mental ones) tend to signify multiple things, there's going to be some gears catching. What if, thematically, I want to make a race that's good at one thing an ability score represents, but not another? If I insist that any class where my race's ability scores match up has to, by definition, be something called out as an area where my race excels, I'm kind of screwed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawsplay

While I'm willing to accept an oddity now and then, for the most part, when I see a mismatch, I tend to think there must be something between how the ability scores are defined, how the race is described, and what the class requires, that is not really coherent.

Well... yeah. Its generally the first. Is it REALLY impossible to be well suited for a connection with the gods while also being poorly suited for a connection with nature? Both tend to key off of wisdom.

As far as I can tell, the places this crops up the most are wisdom and charisma. Probably because they're the most extreme "big tent" statistics in terms of themes covered.

WalterKovacs · 18th March 2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaximumHavoc

phb encounter attack spells
level 1, 2 infernal spells, none with fire or fear keyword

With the 16 to INT, CHA and CON stats given, there are two encounter powers that, while they don't give a bonus based on having the infernal pact, they do have fire/fear keyworded.

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level 13, 2 infernal spells, none with fire or fear keyword
level 17, 1 infernal spell, none with fire or fear keyword
level 23, 1 infernal spell, none with fire or fear keyword

With INT 16, it's easy to multiclass into wizard, which provides access to more fire based powers. There is also the sorceror class (now), which can give more charisma based attacks if the focus is on charisma as the secondary instead of intelligence. Arcane power can help with this to some extent, perhaps.

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phb daily attack spells
level 9, 1 infernal spell, none with fire or fear keyword
level 20, 1 infernal spell, none with fire or fear keyword

Do you mean 19? Or are you referring to the power from the paragon path, assuming that no other paragon path would/could be taken? Because the only Infernal spell at 19 has fire, albeit has no attack roll [but does have a damage roll]

If you are referring to the paragon path, the tiefling have a racial paragon that has both the encounter and daily power having fire damage, uses con/int/cha (your choice) as the attack stat.

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level 25, 1 infernal spell, none with fire or fear keyword

And a star pact spell, with the con power that has both fire and fear. Both the infernal and star pact spells at that level have no special benefits based on which pact you use. Ignoring powers that don't have the word Infernal doesn't really say anything about what an infernal warlock can or cannot do. There is nothing that forces a character to grab the infernal power at every level, and a character using that feat would likely do things like pick a multiclass and powerswap where appropriate.

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also note that infernal warlocks get a grand total of 2 spells with the fear keyword.

Also note that star pact has more, and that star pact has con based powers. Also note that the poster suggested 16 to cha, which opened up all warlock powers.

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now, compare that to a race with +2 con (e.g., half-elf), which enjoys a boost to EVERY infernal warlock spell.

However, unless you have a half-elf warlock with 18 to con and charisma, you don't get one that is good at all fire/fear based warlock powers, whether with con and charisma. And while the half-elf would be better at hitting all warlock powers, they would likely have no bonus to intelligence, as they would need to put 13 into str to get heavy armor since they had to put 18's into con and charisma.

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finally, remember that a tiefling has to spend a feat for hellfire blood, as opposed to a +2 con race not having to spend a feat for the better benefit.

One feat, in the long run, isn't much of a cost. In the short term, the warlock only runs into a problem at level 9.

MaximumHavoc · 22nd March 2009, 10:40 PM

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