PHB2 Races = Mos Eisley Cantina

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by Kask

He created D&D which remained fairly consistent in architecture until 3. 4.0 isn't D&D except in name.

So then, when you were talking about the advice in the 1e DMG regarding monstrous characters, and bemoaning the fact that it's no longer being followed, your complaint is actually only leveled against 3e? Because if 4e is only D&D in name only, why should it matter what Gary said in the 1e DMG?

You're making an incoherent argument.

-O

[Doctor Proctor]

There seems to be quite a few misunderstandings here about the commonality of various races in the D&D world.

Take Tieflings, for example.

PHB p48
Heirs to an ancient, infernal bloodline, tieflings have
no realms of their own but instead live within human
kingdoms and cities. They are descended from human
nobles who bargained with dark powers, and long
ago their empire subjugated half the world. But the
empire was cast down into ruin, and tieflings were left
to make their own way in a world that often fears and
resents them.

So from this blurb we learn that they often live in human cities, and would therefore be found in places like Winterhaven. We also learn that they have NOT been totally forgiven for the sins of the past, and in fact many are still feared and resented.

PHB p49
Tieflings are not numerous. Sometimes a tiefling
merchant clan that is descended from a Bael Turath
dynasty settles as a group in a land where wealth can
purchase safety and comfort. But most tieflings are
born outside such hidden dynasties and grow up in the
roughest quarters of human cities and towns. These
tieflings often become swindlers, thieves, or crime
lords, who carve out a niche for themselves amid the
squalor of their surroundings.

So while they're not numerous in the world, they are around. Some of the more reputable ones set up merchant clans...perhaps that's why there's a Tiefling shopkeeping in Winterhaven? The rest often live in human cities and many turn to crime. This doesn't seem to match with the idea of the common Tieflings that are treated as "good" people now. If that's what's happening in your campaign, that's something the DM is allowing to happen, it's not actually the fluff for the race.

You'll see the same thing when looking at Dragonborns. Again, they're not as common as some of the other races, but they built a great empire that was a beacon of civilization in it's time. They were nobles, aristocrats, or Samurai from the Desert if you prefer.

In the DDI article, Ecology of the Dragonborn, it goes into further detail about them.

Dragon 365 p14
Most present-day dragonborn are integrated into mixed societies and are living in lands they cannot claim as their own. A few clans, as well as many
individuals, roam in search of worthy causes, or simple wealth and personal glory.

So again, they're often found in mixed societies since they have no homeland anymore. Even if there's not a local clan living within a city, they've probably seen a few Dragonborn in their time since many are nomadic wanderers. They're hardly so rare that the majority of people have gone their entire life without seeing one.

Now, I haven't looking in depth at the fluff for the PHB II races yet, but I'm assuming that they give similar explanations as to where they live and how easily encountered they are. Even if the case is that they're extremely rare, having multiple exotic races in a party full of epic heroes is not really that strange. Considering that it's most likely that they last guys to take on the Orc Chieftan and his stable of Goblin soldiers were probably a bunch of humans, it's not actually that wierd that the people would seek help from a party of adventurers with a fire breathing Dragonborn, a teleporting Eladrin or towering Goliath. They might not trust them a lot, but it's hardly something that should break the 4th wall so to speak...unless you're doing some custom campaign where these races are super rare, yet all present in a party. In which case, that's a DM issue, not a PHB one.

[Starbuck_II]

Originally Posted by Celebrim

Heck, even something like 'Star Trek' has its Elves (Vulcans), Orcs (Old Klingons), Dwarves (New Klingons), and Drow (Romulans) tapping into the archetypes. (Throw in Ferengi as goblins, maybe)

But Dragonborn? No clue.

Dragonborn? No clue. Don't know how to use them. Don't know what role they'd fit in a story. Don't know how to imagine being one. Not sure that I'd enjoy imagining being one if I knew how. Maybe what I need is out there somewhere, but the problem is that as a race with no mythic connections really, its entirely dependent on the fluff provided by the game designer to make it interesting. Generally, I haven't found that working. You'd need 30 pages or so just to flesh the culture out a bit.

That is because Dwarves in your mind stole the PHB 1 in 4E's Dragonborn flavor text: I mean do you realize how Klingons like Dragonborn text is?

[Barastrondo]

You know what threads like this make me think of? It's kind of an old fantasy cliche, particularly in works where the protagonist is a person from our world who's transferred into a fantasy world. (Also in science fiction; I'm thinking, say, Last Starfighter here.)

So you have the protagonist entering into a fantasy world, and he or she spends a lot of initial time gawking. Maybe stopping to stare as someone Not Human walks past in the street, maybe saying "What are you?" in an incredulous tone to someone Not Human, perhaps someone who's just gone out of their way to lend assistance. Sometimes, if you're the kind of kid I was, you get frustrated with the protagonist having such a hard time coping with things that look different, particularly if you've devoured a lot of works in which this behavior takes place. In the meantime, everyone else in the fantasy world also basically looks cooler and more sophisticated than the protagonist, because they're used to a definition of "cosmopolitan" that includes non-humans.

To refer back to the Mos Eisley example, one of the things that makes Luke more sympathetic is that he doesn't act like this. He doesn't marvel at every alien race at the cantina that isn't a pink-skinned primate. He doesn't ask Chewbacca "Wow, what are you?"

That's the play style difference I think threads like this illustrate. Some of us like the idea of a dragon-guy or a werewolf-chick receiving a lot of goggle-eyed "What the heck is that?" responses.* Others like the idea of human types defaulting to a Han Solo archetype, who can hang with inhuman co-pilots and think nothing of dealing with an inhuman bounty hunter. The best thing about having a bunch of races is that you can even do both: have societies where dragonborn and half-orcs are well-integrated, but shifters have to conceal themselves due to the role lycanthropes play in the world.

I'll admit, though, that I'm posting from the perspective of someone who likes the ramifications of truly mixed demographics. Sometimes it's just more fun to try figuring out what giant sapient beetles would serve for dinner if they had humanoid guests, or what sort of transport you could buy from a lizardman teamster, without having to go through the requisite period of "What do you mean they're not monsters?"



*I think it is substantially less cool, however, to get all "I'm gonna punish the player for picking a race I don't like by having the world treat him like crap!" on a player. It so frequently comes across as using your favorite civilizations like grudge monsters, probably because it so frequently is exactly that.

[Jack7]

I don't know. The disagreements I see developing here are all a little too convenient for my tastes.

What about all of the exotic creatures in the 7.6890329 Interspatial Virtual Time-Net Version that they play on Calamari Seven? You know like the Walking Cat-Dog-Squirrel-Snake-Man Centaur Hybrid of the Ancient Arch Druidical Clover-Leaf Consortium that can spit Medusa hair at shaved-naked Ettins, and give green feywild tan boogers the Evil Eye as a universal racial attribute? With a +6 at first level as a basic bonus even without winning initiative? I don't think so!

You don't hear anybody complaining about that though, now do ya?

I think this is all a thinly veiled effort by the mythical and cunning Co-bald Confederacy to ruin Magical Game Harmony between the United Amalgamated Fantasy Racial Purist League(s) and the newly revamped Racial Clone Progressive Experimentation Alliance. (By the way, I think the RCPEA got shafted at the Spacely Sprockets 301st Annual bowling tournament, back in 2917, and I'm not just trying to rub salt into an old wound either. I'm serious.)

Anyways, I say, "follow the money folks."
When in doubt, always follow the money.

If we don't watch out then we're all gonna end up just another set of THACO statistics for certain individuals who shall remain nameless, but would just love to see this kind of in-fighting in the broader Fanto-Sci-fi-Action-Detective-Mystery League.

We need Unity on this one people, not more, "well, I think the game is more about pirate ships with advanced deflector screens, than drow with built in old school Terminator cyborg kill-bot parts."

Can't we all just agree that sometimes a Rheingold dwarf is really just a beardless blue anti-gravity space man riding a red and yellow eyed spectral beaver-wolf across the vacuum packed Sea of Infinite possibilities?

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by Jack7

I don't know. The disagreements I see developing here are all a little too convenient for my tastes.

What about all of the exotic creatures in the 7.6890329 Interspatial Virtual Time-Net Version that they play on Calamari Seven? You know like the Walking Cat-Dog-Squirrel-Snake-Man Centaur Hybrid of the Ancient Arch Druidical Clover-Leaf Consortium that can spit Medusa hair at shaved-naked Ettins, and give green feywild tan boogers the Evil Eye as a universal racial attribute? With a +6 at first level as a basic bonus even without winning initiative? I don't think so!

You don't hear anybody complaining about that though, now do ya?

I think this is all a thinly veiled effort by the mythical and cunning Co-bald Confederacy to ruin Magical Game Harmony between the United Amalgamated Fantasy Racial Purist League(s) and the newly revamped Racial Clone Progressive Experimentation Alliance. (By the way, I think the RCPEA got shafted at the Spacely Sprockets 301st Annual bowling tournament, back in 2917, and I'm not just trying to rub salt into an old wound either. I'm serious.)

Anyways, I say, "follow the money folks."
When in doubt, always follow the money.

If we don't watch out then we're all gonna end up just another set of THACO statistics for certain individuals who shall remain nameless, but would just love to see this kind of in-fighting in the broader Fanto-Sci-fi-Action-Detective-Mystery League.

We need Unity on this one people, not more, "well, I think the game is more about pirate ships with advanced deflector screens, than drow with built in old school Terminator cyborg kill-bot parts."

Can't we all just agree that sometimes a Rheingold dwarf is really just a beardless blue anti-gravity space man riding a red and yellow eyed spectral beaver-wolf across the vacuum packed Sea of Infinite possibilities?

I get the sense that this post was made in the English language, as I recognize the words and letters, at least.

That's about the most I can get out of it, though.

-O

[Doctor Proctor]

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

That is because Dwarves in your mind stole the PHB 1 in 4E's Dragonborn flavor text: I mean do you realize how Klingons like Dragonborn text is?

Well, to be fair, I don't think either of them really embodies everything about the Klingons, although they mirror certain aspects.

Dwarves are these stocky, tough, nasty, determined guys. They're the sort that if they're digging a tunnel and part of it collapses, they'll just pick up their shovel and resume digging. They won't stop until it's done.

Dragonborn are different though. They're powerful (the only PHB I race with a bonus to STR) and imposing figures. They're easily one of the largest of the PC races, and one of the strongest. They're the type that if they're digging a tunnel and it collapses, they'll just get a bigger shovel. They'll just apply more power to problem, rather than resolving it through sheer determination.

So yeah, Dwarves embody that aspect of determination about the Klingons in Star Trek, as well as their toughness. Dragonborn embody their strength and sense of honor being more important than anything else. They even have clans, which are not unlike the Houses seen in the TNG and later Klingons.

[Jack Colby]

I agree with the OP, but don't think it's a big deal. This is a new game, not traditional D&D, and the basis in classic myths and sword & sorcery fiction is long gone. Yeah, I looked through the Player's Handbook 2... there were maybe one or two races or classes that seemed like things I'd use, so I didn't buy it.

Even if you did buy it, you're not being forced to use these things. Take what you want from it and don't use the rest if you're a DM, or don't involve yourself in games where they are prominent if you are a player.

And hey, what's wrong with the Mos Eisley cantina? It can be interesting to take that approach with a D&D world, just to shake things up a bit.

[Silverblade The Ench]

Hey, Jack7's post is fun!
Never overlook "fun", and looking at things through a very warped, self depreceating and humorous lens

[Klaus]

He certainly stepped out of the books for that one!

[Mallus]

Jack7's post was what Williams S. Burroughs would have written if he were addicted to nerdery instead of opiates.

Note: this is a compliment... I like Burroughs.

[resistor]

I'm not inherently opposed to the publication of weird-and-interesting PC races (though I don't like them in MY campaign, and didn't in 3e either), I think there's a few differences this time around because of how 4e presents them.

1) Everything Is Core

In 3e, there was a pretty clear picture of what "default" D&D looked like, and it was also pretty clear that later supplements were not "on by default." The new policy changes this. It creates an assumption that supplements, particularly PHB2/3/4/12452, is "on by default." This makes it harder for DMs who want to run campaigns without the weird-and-interesting races, because, the be honest, the further ones game is from the default, the more specialized its audience and the harder it will be to find/retain/train new players.

2) Deliberate Spreading of Content

To compound the above issue, 4e has deliberately taken a policy of holding some "classic" content in reserve for later versions of the PHB/DMG/MM, in order to ensure more sales. However, this also creates complications for the DM. In 3e, a DM who only wanted the traditional basic races could just say "We're only using the PHB1." Now, that content is (deliberately) spread throughout several books, so the DM has to create a specific list of X and Y are allowed, but Z isn't. Again, this has the effect, at least psychologically, of removing the game further from the new "default D&D."

[Phaezen]

Originally Posted by resistor

I'm not inherently opposed to the publication of weird-and-interesting PC races (though I don't like them in MY campaign, and didn't in 3e either), I think there's a few differences this time around because of how 4e presents them.

1) Everything Is Core

In 3e, there was a pretty clear picture of what "default" D&D looked like, and it was also pretty clear that later supplements were not "on by default." The new policy changes this. It creates an assumption that supplements, particularly PHB2/3/4/12452, is "on by default." This makes it harder for DMs who want to run campaigns without the weird-and-interesting races, because, the be honest, the further ones game is from the default, the more specialized its audience and the harder it will be to find/retain/train new players.

2) Deliberate Spreading of Content

To compound the above issue, 4e has deliberately taken a policy of holding some "classic" content in reserve for later versions of the PHB/DMG/MM, in order to ensure more sales. However, this also creates complications for the DM. In 3e, a DM who only wanted the traditional basic races could just say "We're only using the PHB1." Now, that content is (deliberately) spread throughout several books, so the DM has to create a specific list of X and Y are allowed, but Z isn't. Again, this has the effect, at least psychologically, of removing the game further from the new "default D&D."

Query, because I would really like to know.

Is a DM saying race x,y and z and classes f and q are not present in this campaign setting really that much of a dealbreaker to people?

I would not have a problem with this myself, and I have done it as well, although I do try and give my players reasons for not allowing the race or class. Its not as if in previous editions DMs might not have allowed psionics in the game. By default if you are running a homebrew campaign setting you will be deviating from the default setting assumptions.

Phaezen

[Mad Zagyg]

Originally Posted by resistor

I'm not inherently opposed to the publication of weird-and-interesting PC races (though I don't like them in MY campaign, and didn't in 3e either), I think there's a few differences this time around because of how 4e presents them.

1) Everything Is Core

In 3e, there was a pretty clear picture of what "default" D&D looked like, and it was also pretty clear that later supplements were not "on by default." The new policy changes this. It creates an assumption that supplements, particularly PHB2/3/4/12452, is "on by default." This makes it harder for DMs who want to run campaigns without the weird-and-interesting races, because, the be honest, the further ones game is from the default, the more specialized its audience and the harder it will be to find/retain/train new players.

2) Deliberate Spreading of Content

To compound the above issue, 4e has deliberately taken a policy of holding some "classic" content in reserve for later versions of the PHB/DMG/MM, in order to ensure more sales. However, this also creates complications for the DM. In 3e, a DM who only wanted the traditional basic races could just say "We're only using the PHB1." Now, that content is (deliberately) spread throughout several books, so the DM has to create a specific list of X and Y are allowed, but Z isn't. Again, this has the effect, at least psychologically, of removing the game further from the new "default D&D."

Resistor, you speak in FACTS.

It is much easier to add exotic flavors to a soup than it is to remove them once they are mixed in.

[Kask]

Originally Posted by Mad Zagyg

Resistor, you speak in FACTS.

It is much easier to add exotic flavors to a soup than it is to remove them once they are mixed in.

True, it also makes it more difficult to create a campaign world that is high quality.

[Lurks-no-More]

Originally Posted by Phaezen

Query, because I would really like to know.

Is a DM saying race x,y and z and classes f and q are not present in this campaign setting really that much of a dealbreaker to people?

I'm sure there are players out there who balk when told they can't use everything in every book that's come out yet, but overall I think it's a bit exaggerated as a problem. I've played in several campaigns where the available options were limited, sometimes pretty sharply ("Only dwarves and gnomes are available as starting races," for example), and nobody complained.

[Lurks-no-More]

Originally Posted by Kask

True, it also makes it more difficult to create a campaign world that is high quality.

Beg your pardon?

[Mournblade94]

I don't even like 4e and when I saw that particular piece of art I thought it looked good.

WoTC is doing a good job on appearance if nothing else.

[resistor]

Originally Posted by Phaezen

Is a DM saying race x,y and z and classes f and q are not present in this campaign setting really that much of a dealbreaker to people?

Dealbreaker? Probably not. Doesn't me I like it, though.

I think the issue is mostly one of perception. What do players expect when you say "Want to join our D&D game?" In 3e, at least, the default assumption was that they used the PHB, and possibly some supplements. Today, because of the everything-is-core and spreading-of-content policies, the default is shifting to be up-to-date core books, and possibly some supplements.

As to why this is a problem, well, again, it's perceptual. Most players are looking for whatever the current norm is, so you'll have to look harder to find someone who's interested in your non-norm game.

Beyond that, there's just the feeling on marginalization on the part of those who preferred a more restricted core. Their preferred style used to be fairly mainstream within the D&D-playing populace, and now it seems to be more marginalized. And nobody likes feeling like that.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Gnome? Half-Orc? Goliath? What's so Mos Eisley about them?

That's Mos Eisley

If anything, the problem of most of the 4E races is that they are all just humanoids with funny skin colors and pointy ears and unusual body size. We don't have creatures with

The most alien creature is the Dragonborn, because he has scales.

---

I feel that there is a lot of worrying about games that are not yours going on here.

Come on, what's the big deal if someone else uses Savage Species to run Mind Flayers alongside Humans, Drow and Tiefling PCs? Or uses PHB II to run Dragonborn alongside Humans, Elves, Devas and so on?

Is this some kind of badwrongfun thing: "But that's not how _we_ like to play. We don't want a rule system that might make it easy to play the game in any other way but the way I am used to!"

I don't know about other people games, but my experience is that it's very easy for a DM to say "No, I won't allow this race/class/feat/PrC/Paragon Path/Magic Item". Do you really constantly have trouble telling your players no? If that's the case, ever considered the idea that maybe, just maybe, you're running the wrong game for the players you have, and maybe you need either change your game or change your players?

If you have a group that doesn't like Devas and Dragonborn, don't use them. If you have a group that does like them, use them.
If you have a group with mixed opinions on that, don't use "it's not core" as a lame excuse to say No to someone. Don't use "but it's core" as your lame excuse to say why you HAVE to have your way.
Discuss it and arrive at a fair compromise! Not everyone of us might be an adult, but at some point you gonna have to learn acting like one.