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Am I the only one to think that V just killed *every* black dragon in the world - even those only part black dragon (such as the half-dragon humanoid and half-dragon centaur)? That was my understanding of the comic before coming to this thread, but now I am not completely sure. After all, her family, if you go far enough, includes *all* black dragons. Even those fifth degree cousins four times removed and so forth.
As for the act, it depends on the nature of the OotS world. Are black dragons innately evil? Then, no, the act was not evil (although the spell, and therefore the willing casting of it, most definitely was). V has slid to CN and is playing with the line between CN and CE, but it was due to the spell he cast, not the results of the spell.
Are only *most* black dragons evil? Then yes, it was a horrific evil act. V has slid fully past CN and into CE. (Granted, in my opinion s/he has been playing with the line between CG and CN since 'Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.' although I am still of two minds as to whether the act should be considered CG or CN. It was, after all, a chaotic act that slew a LE being. But then the problems with Chaos and Chaotic alignments are another thread entirely.)
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Quotes
"If you aren't omnipotent, why should we bring sacrifices, why should we praise and pray?" (Ariadne asked him.)
Dionysus raised his brows. "Why do the people of Crete bring your father tithes and taxes? Because he protects them from others, because he sometimes grants them what they petition for, because he is more powerful than they and would punish them if they didn't obey his laws. That's why you pray and sacrifice to the gods of Olympus. I said we weren't omnipotent. I didn't say we weren't any different from the native people in this part of the world."
Bull God (p 260) by Roberta Gellis
Tests
This says I am a NG Elf Ranger This says I am a NG Elf Ranger/Druid This says I am a NG Halfling Druid and have Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12 This says I am a Storyteller 75%, Method Actor 58%, Specialist 58%, Tactician 50%, Power Gamer 42%, Casual Gamer 8%, Butt-Kicker 0% This says I am a Major Geek: 37.67258% This says I am going to Purgatory
Last edited by Nyeshet; 20th March 2009 at 04:04 PM..
It is more likely that it hit every dragon descended from both the maternal and paternal grand parents, or great grand parents, or something of that sort. So a whole lot of cousins and 2nd cousins are probably wondering what the hell hit them right now.
Yep, the question is how far related the spell considers "family". And since you can have bloodlines that cross species borders in a D&D world (dragon -> half dragon -> sorcerer), we are talking about the potential genocide of several species... including humans and elves.
Try "Alignment", in the 3.0/3.5 MM. "Always Chaotic Evil" means that a vast majority (iirc, about 80%) of the species is of the given alignment, but exceptions still do exist.
Ah, very good. Should learn to not check only SRD. But it still doesn't say that it's because of upbringing.
The implication, at least as I read it, is that the Black Dragons all spring from one common ancestor. V just caused the extinction of the black dragon.
Which is, I suppose, a very sensible way to ensure that none of the dragon's relatives will come after your family in revenge. If, you know, you are irredeemably evil...
Am I the only one to think that V just killed *every* black dragon in the world - even those only part black dragon (such as the half-dragon humanoid and half-dragon centaur)? That was my understanding of the comic before coming to this thread, but now I am not completely sure.
Dont forget sorcerers of black dragon lineage - and their families.
Killing a bunch of evil dragons and their spawn = not evil.
Simply casting spells with the evil descriptor (as Familicide is likely to have) = evil.
The problem with the question is that it depends on answering two questions with very little real world counterparts. We have to make decisions about the nature of magic and the nature of monsters.
If Dragons are true free-willed beings, then V has committed murder. If Dragons are some sort of incarnated idea, some sort of spiritual force given flesh, some sort of inherent evil, some sort of scourge on the earth, then ridding the world of a bunch of Dragons is a very great good.
Personally, I think of Dragons as the latter sort of thing. They are incarnated engines of destruction, the animated will of a primal destroyer goddess. Though sentient, they are no more free willed than hurricanes or earthquakes. I prefer to think of them in this way because such a thing has no counterpart in the real world.
If Magic is just technology, then the means by which V accomplished the feat are morally nuetral. But traditionally, magic is not presented as morally neutral knowledge or technology. Traditionally, magic is a thing of moral value in and of itself. Philosophers and practicioners spoke of 'white magic' and 'black magic', and I think that it is pretty clear that V's tool - however apparantly good its ends at the moment - is in and of itself a thing of the darkest and foulest magic. My interpretation is that 'black magic' when it is employed even with the best of motives (and V's motives are far from pure) and even when employed to achieve the best of ends (like destroying a bunch of dragons) is still inherently evil and corrupting and whatever harvest it ultimately brings is gauranteed to be evil on the simple principle of like begats like. Whatever good V has incidently brought about is overshadowed at the least by the evil V is unleashing simply by being what V is right now (and will do in evil's service under the compact that he's under).
At the very least, every action he performs right now - however good and noble - gets repaid back by three actions of the most vile and evil sort. There isn't anything that V could possibly do that action that will overshadow the evil that will be required in consequence of that.
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Am I the only one to think that V just killed *every* black dragon in the world - even those only part black dragon (such as the half-dragon humanoid and half-dragon centaur)? That was my understanding of the comic before coming to this thread, but now I am not completely sure.
You're not alone.
I was thinking the exact same thing. However, the spell name was familicide, implying the extermination of the target's family. What does family mean? Could be as narrow as direct blood descendents (clearly not the case here) to as wide as every creature with some (at least half?) black dragon blood.
I think it would be more interesting, dramatically, if it killed every black dragon and half black dragon in the world . . . especially in a game. That would have some extremely far reaching and unintended consquences, not to mention the utter damnation of V.
V just needs to cast a wish ("I wish that any of the dragonspawn I just killed that wasn't evil and will not take revenge on me or my family for killing their family would be resurrected") and he's golden again.
What makes V's action evil isn't so much that he killed "innocent" black dragons, but that he resurrected the Dragon specifically so that she could be conscious and aware of the destruction of her entire extended family, thus reveling in and multiplying the suffering of everyone involved for his own personal pleasure.
Taking pleasure in the suffering of others=evil.
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V just needs to cast a wish ("I wish that any of the dragonspawn I just killed that wasn't evil and will not take revenge on me or my family for killing their family would be resurrected") and he's golden again.
Can't. The terms of the deal were that V couldn't use the soul splice to duplicate any divine spell effects. So, no mass-Res.
It goes to showcase one more thing, as well. How scary will it be if/when the three souls are unleashed without any kind of control reigning them in, once the splice is released? When one of them has an epic spell like "familicide" ready to hand, what have the others got up their sleeves?
Can't. The terms of the deal were that V couldn't use the soul splice to duplicate any divine spell effects. So, no mass-Res.
It goes to showcase one more thing, as well. How scary will it be if/when the three souls are unleashed without any kind of control reigning them in, once the splice is released? When one of them has an epic spell like "familicide" ready to hand, what have the others got up their sleeves?
Well the sorcerer probably has all the skills necessary to unleash the Snarl once and for all (since undo reality is his "thing".)
And if "spawn" includes all sorcerers of black dragon descent and their families?
Depends on another question we are entirely unable to answer - how fragile is free will? Does it survive when mixed with something else? Hellboy answers the question one way. Other authors would answer it in another.
There are lots and lots of ways that V's action can just go wrong, even if decide for simplicities sake that there are no black dragon sorcerers or that they aren't effected (for example, only relatives with the same subtype as the target individual).
She's just escalated this conflict just about as far as it can be escalated.
Suddenly, she's populated the nine hells with a whole outraged race of vengeful black dragons. At the very least, this is an action that Tiamat cannot overlook. Her very domain has been threatened. Death is not the end of anything in D&D. V also must hope that dragon's cannot become ghosts, and that none have the means to be restored to life. V also must hope that you can't survive this spell by throwing a natural 20, or by having a death ward in effect, because if you can, then there are likely to be survivors - very angry survivors. V must also hope that all those hybrids are unloved by the non-dragon relatives.
I should also say that for all my theorizing, Rich seems to have weighed into this with ideas of his own. The actions of the Dragon upon being restored to life are suggestive of the idea that even evil dragons aren't wholly evil and hense are probably free willed beings, capable of both good and evil.
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I have a prediction to make, but sadly won't do it on a public forum incase it is true and forces a change.....
Thank you for your restraint, because one thing that makes me not want to click on threads like this is if I'm going to see a guess that's so clearly right it's like I've been spoiled for the rest of the storyline.
And even the MM says that "Always Evil" only means "Almost always evil". When you're killing hundreds of people, that "almost always" case is bound to crop up.
Plot is immune to rules at the DM's/authors discretion. Personally, I think the MM is in error because I've NEVER agreed with that particular bit.
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Personally, I think of Dragons as the latter sort of thing. They are incarnated engines of destruction, the animated will of a primal destroyer goddess. Though sentient, they are no more free willed than hurricanes or earthquakes.
We of the metallic persuasion take great offense at such small-minded stereotyping of our glorious and resplendent species. A few black eggs doesn't spoil the whole clutch.
" E.G.G.
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