General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I can't seriously believe that some people are trying to say that this wasn't an evil act. Heck this thing bordered on Vile, if not jumping over it with rocket skates.
Bingo.
This was an Evil act, big Evil, Vile class evil. Crack open the BoVD because you didn't just cross the moral event horizon, you went headlong into the singularity with that one.
An epic spell that borders on genocide, slaughtering dozens or hundreds of beings instantly across the world based on nothing more than kinship. Even if the vast majority of Black Dragons are Evil, there are still the non-evil kin (the "black sheep" of the family, and non-evil Black Dragons ect), and using an Evil spell on this scale is like textbook evil.
When this Soul Splice ends, and V doesn't have the collective power of 3 epic-level casters backing him/her up, he's going to have a lot of irate beings after her/him (Tiamat & the church thereof, any allies of his/her victims that weren't family ect.).
When did a small number of civilian casualties make an act unspeakably vile?
I dunno, I think this is a not quite evil act done for very evil reasons.
Civilian casualties implies some sort of war. Ultimately, every single black dragon killed was a civilian casualty in the war between one black dragon and V, and that black dragon had already lost that war by being killed by V. They may not be innocent, but they certainly weren't part of any war against V ... arguably few if any even knew of V's existence.
When did a small number of civilian casualties make an act unspeakably vile?
Hmm, an Epic Spell specifically designed to kill people across the world for no reason other than their kinship to a target, to such an distance in relationship that the victims quite possibly have never met the initial subject. Look at what counts as Vile spells in the BoVD, this would go right in there.
This isn't destroying some evil creature in self defense, or defense of your town/country, or to thwart an ongoing evil plan of these creatures. This is mass murder of dozens/hundreds or even thousands as vengeance with the paper thin self-justification of protecting your family and V didn't do it because they were Evil in alignment.
We don't know just how many victims there were, and it's doesn't matter. It's not about numbers, it's not about just how many civilian casualties makes it vile, it's the intent and how the intent was carried out. The intent was to slaughter countless black dragons and black-dragon-kin just because one of them came after him, and the means was Epic-level Necromancy.
It's an act bordering on genocide, it's blatantly Vile.
It's an act bordering on genocide, it's blatantly Vile.
It's genocide of a genetically evil race.
I mean putting aside intent, because V's intent in this case is clearly evil/bad/vile, I'm not getting that from the act itself.
Is killing all demons or devils evil? Is ridding the world of black dragons an evil act? I just can't see it, sure it's a little morally hazy because there have to be a handful of good black dragons out there, but killing evil creatures is not an evil act.
The cost of that epic spell should damn well better be expensive as hell! Can you say, "broken"?!
And V's digging the hole deeper. Wiping out an entire species of dragon is a highly disproportionate response. Even if it's not every black dragon, just the blood relatives of the mother, it's still disproportionate. Don't use the "they're evil" defense here; because they are evil, many of them will be selfish enough that they simply wouldn't care that V killed a blood relative. D&D dragons are not that empathic towards each other, so therefore, V never really needed to worry about future "threats". V's just getting an evilgasm from this.
Also, V kill stole from at least one adventuring party, and won't get the experience from it. Anyone who's ever had someone kill steal from them knows that kill stealers are the among the lowest of lowlifes, with only ninja looters worse. That too is vile evil.
If I were DMing this, I too would pull out Tiamat...after the soul splice wears off. At least that's what I'd do if a player even attempted to do this (and the spells would probably be too damn expensive to pull off in the first place). And before anyone cries foul over heavy-handed DMing, I'd think the deity queen of evil dragonkind would certainly take notice if some little elf just suddenly wiped out a big chunk of her worshippers like this.
Anyway, the karma for this little stunt is going to be a bitch. V's doing a good job of out-eviling Belkar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenes
V just needs to cast a wish ("I wish that any of the dragonspawn I just killed that wasn't evil and will not take revenge on me or my family for killing their family would be resurrected") and he's golden again.
Not if I were DMing. Trying to undo the karma for this over-the-top ineffably evil act with a wish is grounds for massive wish perversion. It's a matter of weasling out of something you did that was truely wicked instead of being mature about it and accepting the consequences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribble
Wouldn't it be awesome if the reign of dragon destruction continues into next strip... and we suddenly find out that someone very close to V has a little black dragon blood in his/her distant past?
That would be very good. The appropriate result of making a foolish Faustian pact like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiku
Plus, this is dnd. V can just, after the splice is done, go get atonement cast by some random cleric and do some silly quest like save the universe from the snarl and call it neutral.
This is too big to simply be washed away by a mere atonement.
__________________ "Y'know, I think my favorite thing about being a hero of destiny is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in your way." -- 8-bit Theater
"i did not serve with napolean in his artillery. but i did play wargames with him and his men." -- diaglo
Plus, this is dnd. V can just, after the splice is done, go get atonement cast by some random cleric and do some silly quest like save the universe from the snarl and call it neutral.
For that V must want to repent, but he/she was never really good or even neutral at all so I don't think that even without the splice he/she would feel sorry for the act.
Just remember Kubota.
__________________ Everything about RPGs is subjective, so everything I say about them is I my opinion and not hard facts
Having a backstory is good. Using this backstory in game is better. And for that you need background skills.
4E, the game where you play HSMFOS
Heroic
Only good, or at least unaligned adventurers are supported and no monster you can fight is good aligned.
Super-
The PCs become masters in any skill automatically and it is impossible for them to be bad at a mundane task
Mutants
Compared to NPCs of the same strength, PCs poses a ungodly amount of HP and can withstand huge mountains of punishment. That or they can spontaneously regenerate wounds.
From Outer Space
Yet despite no matter how powerful the PCs become, they can never do anything special what the "natives" (=NPCs) can do like animating a skeleton.
Last edited by Derren; 21st March 2009 at 10:34 AM..
Plus, this is dnd. V can just, after the splice is done, go get atonement cast by some random cleric and do some silly quest like save the universe from the snarl and call it neutral.
That'll totally make it all right with V's SO and their kids.
No way, there is absolutely zero proof in either the OotS canon or the D&D 3.5 RAW (that OotS generally runs on) that Black Dragons are inherently, genetically evil.
Now, in the SRD they are listed as "always lawful evil", but one thing that people keep forgetting is what alignment frequency definitions mean in 3.x, even by the RAW. "Always" doesn't mean "always", it is a game term to mean that the vast majority are evil but exceptions can and do exist.
It's not like they are animated by an inherently malevolent force (like Undead) or have to devour the sentient to survive (like Illithid), or even an alignment-based force made physicially manifest (like Fiends). Chromatic dragons are big magical flying lizards and the black ones may well have bad temperaments and tendencies by genetics (like a Pit Bull) and a racial veneration of an infernal deity (like Tiamat), but they aren't inherently, automatically evil.
Just because adventurers kill things "just because they are evil" all the time doesn't mean it's automatically a good act. There are evil adventurers looking to justify their actions, and there are an awful lot of neutral adventurers that are more after profit and xp and use "it's evil" as an excuse to harvest XP and treasure from monsters in a societally acceptable way. Good adventurers may well kill lots of Black Dragons, but generally in self-defense, or the defense of their town/kingdom/ect and not just stalking them down and killing them in their sleep and crushing their eggs for no reason other than the color of their scales.
As for using anything Miko Miyazaki said as moral guidance with regards to combat (the "color coded for your convenience" crack she once made), look where her attitudes and conduct got her in the end.
Near genocide of a sentient race with free will, even if the majority of them are evil, is still evil.
I wonder if this could also be considered the right four words to ultimate power for all the wrong reasons?
"She calls it Familicide!"
Casting an epic spell, which might be considered ultimate power for V,
one whose pursuit of arcane might has been the sole focus of her/is
personality and being.
Probably not, but, prophecy is fun, as it can have so many
chances to be interpreted.
__________________ "Hobbes: Do you think there's a God? Calvin: Well, SOMEBODY'S out to get me." - Bill Watterson -
V already has ultimate power. The prophecy was fullfilled at some point before V accepted the pact, which point is debatable but ultimately meaningless.
By the way the fact that this spell causes glee to three of the most powerful and evil spellcasters in existance should indicate something.
Personally, I think the next strip will return back to hell to cover the reactions and opinions of the three arch-fiends. Perhaps this was unexpected and will affect some of their plans. Perhaps Tiamat will come knocking to find out why they gave an upstart monkey so much power - resulting in the death of many (if not all of one type) of her creations / children, the black dragons.
I wonder how this might affect others in the strip. Could the Azure Guild remnants be fighting a half-dragon [black] half-dragon-turtle right about now? What about Xykon? Did he notice the epic spell? What (if anything) did he think of it? What about Redcloak? Will he (or Durkon, for that matter) receive word of this major event in a dream from his deity (or one of their servitors)?
What about in the heavens? Will the former central character of this strip suddenly notice scores of various celestials running about, frantic over some event on the Prime - and learn what V has done? How would he react? Granted, he was willing to accept onto his team Belkar - whom the heavens measure against the love child of Cruela DeVil and Sauron. But still ....
There are just so many potential consequences of this act, one just has to wonder which one will come up first.
__________________
Quotes
"If you aren't omnipotent, why should we bring sacrifices, why should we praise and pray?" (Ariadne asked him.)
Dionysus raised his brows. "Why do the people of Crete bring your father tithes and taxes? Because he protects them from others, because he sometimes grants them what they petition for, because he is more powerful than they and would punish them if they didn't obey his laws. That's why you pray and sacrifice to the gods of Olympus. I said we weren't omnipotent. I didn't say we weren't any different from the native people in this part of the world."
Bull God (p 260) by Roberta Gellis
Tests
This says I am a NG Elf Ranger This says I am a NG Elf Ranger/Druid This says I am a NG Halfling Druid and have Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12 This says I am a Storyteller 75%, Method Actor 58%, Specialist 58%, Tactician 50%, Power Gamer 42%, Casual Gamer 8%, Butt-Kicker 0% This says I am a Major Geek: 37.67258% This says I am going to Purgatory
Thats one huge karmic backlash incoming.
Its imo pretty likely that Vs mate & children are in some way related to the dragon. Its just fitting.
And I disagree that he killed all black dragons. The original dragon was an ancient one who, during her lifetime could sire quite a few children who by now had children of their own etc.
So, we have V who is now utterly evil and probably soon a dead wife and children. After all I still think that each of the 3 limitations will play a role in this story (no XP gain, no divine spells, duration ends).
Yeah, I was thinking this myself. Why does this have to be "all" black dragons? It's an elder wyrm. It's several THOUSAND years old. 64 offspring? Heck, that's damn near celibate.
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
Going by Draconomicon, Its an Ancient female dragon with a Young Adult offspring- puts it at less than 900 years, since female dragons stop being fertile at end of Very Old age category (800), and Young Adult lasts to 100 years old.
Ancient is referred to in-strip. It says it has a talent for magic- would be represented by sorcerer levels, which stack with its own innate spellcasting.
Civilian casualties implies some sort of war. Ultimately, every single black dragon killed was a civilian casualty in the war between one black dragon and V, and that black dragon had already lost that war by being killed by V. They may not be innocent, but they certainly weren't part of any war against V ... arguably few if any even knew of V's existence.
the young adult black dragon was killed by V. At that point the Ancient didn't know who V was. The ancient then found out about V and came after her. Nothing precludes this from carrying on ad infinitum with the rest of the young adult or ancient black dragons family.
While I like the premise of "retaliate don't be preemptive" I'm not sure it actually sells anywhere.
the young adult black dragon was killed by V. At that point the Ancient didn't know who V was. The ancient then found out about V and came after her. Nothing precludes this from carrying on ad infinitum with the rest of the young adult or ancient black dragons family.
Or their friends, or the friends of any of their various slaughtered family members, or anyone who just plain objects to people going around slaughtering entire clans of dragonkind.
Don't make this out as some kind of pre-emptive protective measure. Killing off an entire family line of dragons is far more likely to draw retribution than killing any single dragon - so V hasn't protected hir family, s/he's massively endangered them.
In fact, it wouldn't be uncharacteristic for a dragon-god like Tiamat to simply declare open warfare against all elves in retaliation to an act like that.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
