Classes PHB2 multiclassing uneven-ness?

[Plane Sailing]

I'm looking at the multiclass feats in the PHB2, and the benefits seem rather uneven to say the least:

Invoker is just like wizard - get one at-will as a per-encounter
Bard is just like warlord/cleric - get a daily use of healing power.


Sorcerer gets... +2 to damage once per encounter. Scales to +3/+4. Big wow, eh?

Barbarian gets once per day +2 to damage for a whole encounter (which seems somewhat better). Surprising it isn't limited to [W] attacks.

Druid gets... wildshape(!) and an at-will as a per-encounter.
Shaman gets... call spirit companion, one spirit at-will as a per encounter and speak with spirits as a daily power.


Did some of the sorcerers love get misplaced and accidentally given to the Shaman, who seems to get a particularly sweet multiclassing deal?

Help me see why these are reasonable!

Cheers

[Asmor]

Frankly, I think the shaman stuff isn't all that hot.

You've got to waste a standard action to summon your spirit. Unless you're paragon multiclassing, you probably only have one or two powers which use it. While it's out there, it only gets one opportunity attack per encounter, meaning that it's completely useless on its own when that attack is used, and almost entirely useless on its own before then. And on top of it all, if the spirit gets destroyed, you lose some HP.

Totally agree that the sorcerer gets el shafto, though.

[doctorhook]

The Druid multiclass seems more powerful than it probably is. Wild shape/Beast form is pretty much just window dressing without more Beast form attacks.

The Shaman multiclass seems overpowered for the same reason some feel that the Shaman class is underpowered, I believe: people have a hard time estimating the actual usefulness of the Shaman's class features, especially his Spirit Companion.

The Sorcerer multiclass is dull, but that sort puts it in the same class as marking once per encounter, like many of the older Defender multiclass feats; it's a bit weaker than Curse/Quarry/Sneak Attack once per encounter, too. Perhaps it ought to be a damage bonus to all attacks until the start of your next turn? It's not great as it is, but we don't want to break it. (Incidentally, has anyone else noticed how well Sorcerers multiclass with Paladins?)

[Psikus]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

Sorcerer gets... +2 to damage once per encounter. Scales to +3/+4. Big wow, eh?

Although this is certainly one of the weakest multiclass feats, it's not without its uses, either. The bonus "to your next damage roll" gets a lot better when you consider area effects. For a controller who uses it when hitting 3-4 guys on a burst, the damage boost would be slightly below that of ranger or rogue multiclass.

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

Barbarian gets once per day +2 to damage for a whole encounter (which seems somewhat better). Surprising it isn't limited to [W] attacks.

I think this one is pretty good, and dual wielding characters in particular would love it, if they could afford the feat.

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

Druid gets... wildshape(!) and an at-will as a per-encounter.
Shaman gets... call spirit companion, one spirit at-will as a per encounter and speak with spirits as a daily power.

The druid and shaman cases are special. You get at-will use for some awesome, class defining features. However, you will lack the tools for properly exploiting them. Wild Shape spam allows 'free' shifts every other turn, but without at-will beast basic attacks, you will lose the ability to make OAs or other immediate powers. The spirit companion, on the other hand, is much less interesting without at-will OA powers.

Why should druid and shaman offer those features, by the way? You have to look at each class' power selection for the answer. One of the main points of multiclassing is gaining access to new powers. Both druid beast powers and shaman spirit powers are impossible to use without the appropiate feature. And roughly half the powers for each class have those keywords! Overall, I think it was a nice solution.

Also, as we are commenting iregularities on multiclass feats, I can't help pointing out the Avenger one as the most potentially broken. Two turns of rerolled attacks in melee can wreak real havoc, if you try hard enough.

[Charwoman Gene]

Originally Posted by doctorhook

(Incidentally, has anyone else noticed how well Sorcerers multiclass with Paladins?

Ah, a retained 3eism!

[Orius]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

I'm looking at the multiclass feats in the PHB2, and the benefits seem rather uneven to say the least:

~ Participate or not at your choice, but ditch the snark - PS~

[Nightchilde-2]

I think this is one of the cases where, like many other things in 4e, it reads different than it actually plays. Sure, it looks like the druid is getting a buttload of stuff, for example, but..really...it's not all THAT great.

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by Psikus

Although this is certainly one of the weakest multiclass feats, it's not without its uses, either. The bonus "to your next damage roll" gets a lot better when you consider area effects. For a controller who uses it when hitting 3-4 guys on a burst, the damage boost would be slightly below that of ranger or rogue multiclass.

That is an excellent point, and one that I'd missed. Thanks!

[Nymrohd]

The druid and shaman multiclass feats had to be like this for rules reasons. If they did not give wild shape and summon spirit companion, you would not be able to take encounter and daily powers with the Beast Form and Spirit keywords.
Wild shape is arguably just a flavor tool without said powers.
The spirit companion is arguably a powerful tool when you can summon it as a minor, so it had to be weakened somehow to avoid constant summoning and dismissing it to place an obstacle, but you gain iy as a standard. You essentially spend two standard actions to use an at-will power and create an obstacle that if destroyed will damage you. The Speak with Spirits power was needed (it is nice but not particularly powerful) to balance the feat out.

[billd91]

I have to say that given the hit point inflation that you see in 4e, little bits of bonus damage (less than at least 1d6) seem particularly lame to me. They don't help you against minions since any damage kills them and the impact they have on elites and solos pales in comparison to the amount of hit points they have.

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by billd91

I have to say that given the hit point inflation that you see in 4e, little bits of bonus damage (less than at least 1d6) seem particularly lame to me. They don't help you against minions since any damage kills them and the impact they have on elites and solos pales in comparison to the amount of hit points they have.

Mutliclass feat perks are generally fairly small. They kind of have to be - they're already basically Skill Training +2.

In addition to giving a trained skill, they serve to qualify a character for paragon paths (which is sometimes very cool), feats (again, sometimes great), and the various power-swaps. Anything else you add on top of that almost has to be minor.

Basically, multiclass feats don't need huge perks.

(also, probably 2/3 or more of the foes you face in a game are regular opponents. +1d6 isn't huge, but sometimes those 2-3 extra points make the difference.)

-O

[jbear]

Originally Posted by Nymrohd

The druid and shaman multiclass feats had to be like this for rules reasons. If they did not give wild shape and summon spirit companion, you would not be able to take encounter and daily powers with the Beast Form and Spirit keywords.
Wild shape is arguably just a flavor tool without said powers.
The spirit companion is arguably a powerful tool when you can summon it as a minor, so it had to be weakened somehow to avoid constant summoning and dismissing it to place an obstacle, but you gain iy as a standard. You essentially spend two standard actions to use an at-will power and create an obstacle that if destroyed will damage you. The Speak with Spirits power was needed (it is nice but not particularly powerful) to balance the feat out.

I have to say, for out of combat situations, Wild Shape seems like an awesome power to have ot one's disposition...

Can't get past the guards to see the king: Turn into a cat. Noone looks twice at a cat and they don't stomp on them like they do rats...

I don't think any of the other classes mechanical bonuses outweigh the potential of this power to think outside the square.

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by jbear

I have to say, for out of combat situations, Wild Shape seems like an awesome power to have ot one's disposition...

Can't get past the guards to see the king: Turn into a cat. Noone looks twice at a cat and they don't stomp on them like they do rats...

To be fair, the standard wildshape doesn't let you become something as small as a cat - you've got to be about your own size. Still being able to become a big dog or a pony or something (chimp?) at will has plenty of out-of-combat possibilities on its own.

The Shaman spirit summoning and at-will as an encounter seem good enough as is (it seems to be a bit like the standard 'at-will' as a 'per encounter', but then they get the speak with spirits as a daily on top of that - which seems at first blush to be a big extra bonus.

Cheers

[Piratecat]

You made me realize something fantastic. I can now made a doppelganger NPC who can also turn into an animal, perfect for protective coloring. Heck, I'm planning an entire guild or gang of NPCs, all of whom have the druid multiclass feat and who roam the streets as a pack of savage animals. That's just wonderful for campaign flavor.

[Asmor]

Originally Posted by Piratecat

I can now made a doppelganger NPC who can also turn into an animal, perfect for protective coloring.

You could always do that... Gone are the days of having to justify every ability your NPCs had with specific feats and classes. You're still stuck in a 3rd edition mindset, PC.

[Piratecat]

Originally Posted by Asmor

You could always do that... Gone are the days of having to justify every ability your NPCs had with specific feats and classes. You're still stuck in a 3rd edition mindset, PC.

Nah. I actually meant PC, but then realized I'm more likely to use him as a NPC first, so I changed it. How cool is a doppelganger infiltrator and assassin, assuming that the other players give you a chance to do the fast-talking thing?

You're quite right, though. I love the monster design in 4e.

[Nymrohd]

I'd still reskin the multiclass feat to something else if it was to be used with players. Maybe some Heritage feat that allows shapeshifting.