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When *your* character does their turn, that really isn't especially interesting to anyone but yourself.
As soon as the DM stops describing the encounter, as soon as you know what the monsters do, as soon as all the surprises are known, the encounter *needs* to end fast. It needs to be over because its reached the point of rapidly becoming minimally interesting except to the person currently taking their turn.
Not knowing what your character is going to do at the start of your turn, makes the encounter take longer. Not executing your turn quickly is making the encounter take longer.
Which is why time wasters are a serious problem. Not only are they are serious problem, but virtually *everybody* is a time waster to one degree or another (including yourself), making them an extremely common problem.
So I'm wondering how people combat time wasting?
You can't really yell at or punish people, because its a game and that isn't fun or fair. I would think that you would really need a system that simply strongly encourages people to want to be prepared for their turn and to be concise with its execution.
I'm thinking maybe a system where if you select your power card your going to use and place your attack dice and damage dice on your card, and when its your turn you immedieatly pick up the dice in one hand, move your character with the other, and then roll the whole batch at once, that you would get +1 to the attack roll. Obviously more complicated actions will take more time, but as long as your taking your turn decisively, you get the bonus.
this is something my group struggles with constantly. we joke about busting out sand timers, and i've even bought some (they're surreptitiously presented as being for our boardgames). Sometimes people just can't seem to think about their turn except when it is their turn. I've tried a couple different things.
1. taking my own turn incredibly fast, as though i'd been planning it since my last turn was over (imagine that)
2. Getting interested in other player's turns: "Holy cow, you clobbered that guy!" "we'd better set up a flank and take them down" "Thanks for the heal, i needed it!"
3. Doing the math for them. If someone in your group is obstinate enough to do the math EVERY SINGLE TIME, just memorize _their_ base +to hit and +damage and just helpfully call it out when you start to see them do the finger dance. One of the people in our group seems to do the bullet scene from clue every time he calculates an ability.
4. Rolling damage and attack in the same roll. This one has gotten some flack because D&D players are superstitious and believe that doing this somehow weakens the quality of one roll or the other (D&D is one place i will permit superstition since it usually results in hilarity).
5. Going late. This is only effective if your slowpokes are also the ones with the earliest bed time. Effectively, if they agree to an encounter, it's likely no one will want to stop in the middle (too much bookkeeping), so if you've got the fort save to keep going, make them stick it out and they might suddenly get motivated to be prepared.
6. Get what you can out of the DM. The DM has a vested interest in providing a fun experience, which means not taking forever. You can legitimately ask the DM, who effectively accounts for half of the table, to try and help speed things up. Both myself and our current DM have gotten the knack for uttering quick descriptions while also moving a mini and rolling dice.
Those are the best i can come up with. are they effective? to a certain extent they can be, but one of the frustrating things about home games is you often have to deal with varying levels of interest, and some people in your group just may not be as into D&D as you to take lowering turn time seriously.
I was playing a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Dervish with Improved Two Weapon Fighting and etc etc... insane number of attacks each round, and I realized very quickly how annoying my character was to the other players...
So I went out and got alot of different colored d20's and d6's and just wrote down what's what, and just started rolling it all in mass
Wasting time can happen even when our not meaning to.
When *your* character does their turn, that really isn't especially interesting to anyone but yourself.
As soon as the DM stops describing the encounter, as soon as you know what the monsters do, as soon as all the surprises are known, the encounter *needs* to end fast. It needs to be over because its reached the point of rapidly becoming minimally interesting except to the person currently taking their turn.
First, I'm going to say that *you* are doing something wrong if your turn isn't interesting to anybody buy you. You are playing a HERO in a fantastic world. You should be roleplaying, and you should be describing your actions in an interesting and exciting way. If you say "I roll 23 vs AC, and do 17 damage, " then it doesn't matter how fast you do it. That is boring.
You should be describing what your character does in an interesting, exciting way (or funny, or cool, or whatever, but NOT BORING).
If everybody is bored by everyone else's turn, you've got a bigger problem than timewasting. You have BORING PLAYERS.
Having said that, there's a lot of strategy you can use to help avoid wasted time, and discourage time wasters.
Encourage people to discuss tactics during the combat, and not just on their turn. Tell them that their PC's, having survived so much together, have developed their own "battle cant", and they can discusss this stuff without the enemies cottoning to their plans (at least, not without an Insight check, anyway). This will allow people to plan their actions better, and sooner. It will also make them more interested in other people's turns.
Encourage people to plan out actions during other people's turns. Make sure you track initiative in such a way that everybody can see who is next, so they can get ready to be "at bat".
Ask leading questions as a DM. "So, are you going to attack that guy with your Tide of Iron?" "So, are you turning undead this round?".
Finally, if you have someone who is determined to waste a lot of time, let Dithering count as a minor action. If player X hasn't gone within your time limit (5 minutes, one minute, 10 seconds, whatever), he's spent one minor action Dithering. Dither three times, and your turn is over. Assume that the Player is roleplaying an indecisive character, who wastes time in combat dithering over what to do. If the player complains, tell him (or her) to ROLEPLAY more decisively if you don't want to play an indecisive character.
Finally, see if you can accomodate your players. One of our players came from a video-game/puzzle solving background. She ENJOYS thinking about her actions and her tactics, and finding the best maneuvers. This is part of the fun for her. As long as she's not sucking the fun out of the room for someone else, I like to let her think it out. Everybody has their own play style, and the goal is for each of us to have fun. Often, I enjoy seeing the convoluted plans she comes up with, whether or not they work.
One helpful leading question is, "Have you used one of your encounter powers yet?" or, "Do you have an action point?" Helpful as far as a Reminder.
If you have a player at the table who is a slowpoke, and you have a player who is either anxious or into tactics, have the second player offer tips/advise before the first player's turn. The key here is not to push the player when it's their turn, but to prep them.
Engage the DM. You don't have to ask him to move things along faster, but you can ask him for descriptions while someone else's turn is engaging.
If you plan on doing something outrageous, or something that requires a rule look up, do so beforehand. If you plan on trying to swing from a rope to piledrive into someone, let the DM know that ahead of time so he can decide on an appropriate DC/if it's legal.
Finally, Roleplay.
Talking in character is a free action. Start yelling at the enemy. Strategizing IN-Character.
If you're the DM, have the enemies start insulting the characters. Or begin monologing. I imagine that, if you start monologuing, or having the NPC be very annoying, the player will opt to attack that NPC out of principle.
Shut your mouth when the other person decides their action, but before then, don't be afraid to be your character.
Have one of the players, rather than the GM, manage initiative. Marginal effect on the player's time; significant effect on the GM's ability to focus on running his baddies.
Insist that all players precalculate their attack and damage bonuses. Even for a non-slowcoach, it takes five seconds or so to add it all up. That's half a minute per round, or five or ten minutes per encounter.
Pay attention to what's happening when it isn't your turn, and plan ahead. Sometimes, what you do depends on what the player(s) immediately before you did. Sometimes it doesn't. In the latter case, have your movement counted, your power picked, your bonus known, and your dice in your hand when your init comes up. Your turn will take all of 12 seconds.
Ask leading questions as a DM. "So, are you going to attack that guy with your Tide of Iron?" "So, are you turning undead this round?".
I would recommend not doing this. The players should make choices for their characters without being influenced by someone else's suggestions. And that goes for other players too. Taking control of a player's character isn't worth what little time may be saved.
Talking in character is a free action. Start yelling at the enemy. Strategizing IN-Character.
If you're the DM, have the enemies start insulting the characters. Or begin monologing. I imagine that, if you start monologuing, or having the NPC be very annoying, the player will opt to attack that NPC out of principle.
Shut your mouth when the other person decides their action, but before then, don't be afraid to be your character.
Great suggestion for keeping the action interesting! It's not one that our group does much (we often stay quiet when it's not our turn) but it's something we should start doing more often!
First, I'm going to say that *you* are doing something wrong if your turn isn't interesting to anybody buy you. You are playing a HERO in a fantastic world. You should be roleplaying, and you should be describing your actions in an interesting and exciting way. If you say "I roll 23 vs AC, and do 17 damage, " then it doesn't matter how fast you do it. That is boring.
You should be describing what your character does in an interesting, exciting way (or funny, or cool, or whatever, but NOT BORING).
If everybody is bored by everyone else's turn, you've got a bigger problem than timewasting. You have BORING PLAYERS.
This is the heart of the issue right here. If the players are not engaged and are losing interest in what's happening during encounters, then find out the root cause of the problem and work on it. Talk to the players and ask them directly why they are getting bored. Perhaps the type of adventure being run doesn't suit the players style. An actual discussion followed by action can resolve a lot of issues.
We've worked really hard on this. Some things we do, or have done in the past, include:
1. Use the pig. We have a piggy bank that sits next to the table. Once we start gaming, people toss in money for out-of-character table talk as follows: $.05 for a pun. (Really horrible puns sometimes get refunds instead.) $.10 for out of game comments ("Did you see Lost yesterday?" $.25 for out-of-game war stories ("I used to have this one character who was SO awesome...") We'd then use the money to buy soda with. We don't do this as much anymore, as everyone has been trained, but it works wonderfully for reminding people to keep focuised on the game.
2. Initiative cards with advance warning. I track init with index cards. Each time someone comes up, I say "Marcus is up, Aranel's up next, then a monster, then Kayleth." People have notice of when they should be ready.
3. Have them roll the dice before checking modifiers. For a lot of checks, you know whether you made it before you even look up your skill modifiers. Roll the die firts, then look them up if it isn't obvious.
4. Roll attack and damage dice all at once.
5. For us, talking and strategizing is also a free action. We don't allow one player to browbeat another player's actions, though. If someone starts saying "No, do this instead!" when it isn't their turn, a gentle reminder is enough to get them to shush.
6. Anything that helps prevent analysis paralysis is a good thing. Once you use a power, remove that card from the pile of still-usable powers.
7. Never stop the game to look up a rule unless it's really crucial. Have a player whose turn isn't up look it up instead while the DM continues.
8. No TV nearby. No web browsing at the table for laptops.
9. Encourage people to ignore the rule books' flavor text, and to make up their own. This helps keep their imaginations focused.
EDIT: 10. Don't sit at the head of the table. Sit along one side instead. I found that when I was sitting at the end, everyone on the far side of the table chatted more. Everyone started paying more attention after I moved.
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Each time someone comes up, I say "Marcus is up, Aranel's up next, then a monster, then Kayleth." People have notice of when they should be ready.
Yeah, this is a good one. If nothing else, train yourself to always call out two names for init. Bad: "Bob, it's your turn." Good: "Bob, your turn, then Ralph."
I think that all of Piratecat's suggestions are good ones. But I also think that you need to examine why it is that people aren't more engaged in your combats and the actions of the other players to begin with. Maybe I'm just lucky but my group of players seem very invested in each others success and they are a bunch of cheerleaders for whoever's turn it currently is.
This sometimes has just a bit of bleedover into the "well I think you should use your X power because look at how the bad guys are arranged over here..." but this happens rarely and when it does I shut it down fairly quickly by just asking the players whose turn it is, "So what is it you want to do?"
I just find the assertion, "As soon as the DM stops describing the encounter, as soon as you know what the monsters do, as soon as all the surprises are known, the encounter *needs* to end fast. It needs to be over because its reached the point of rapidly becoming minimally interesting except to the person currently taking their turn." to be rather bizarre. If the combats are meaningful, diverse and exciting then they are something to be reveled in, not hurried through.
One of my favorite little tricks is that at least once per fight, when someone reduces an opponent to 0, I say, "Describe how you kill this guy."
Usually that gets everyone at the table paying attention to the description, for the sheer, "Yeah!" factor.
Also, if you are the DM and you see everyone starting to get restless/bored... DO SOMETHING. Have something happen. It's difficult to have something happen in a routine fight in a 8x8 room, but have something unexpected (and not one-sided) happen, like the roof collapsing, or a new NPC run through the room.
These are all great suggestions (especially piratecat's suggestion about the DM sitting on the edge of the table - if only I had a big enough table to allow this). My group has struggled with this problem for a while now. We've tried stopwatches and hour glasses, we've had the players track initiative, we've banned (and then unbanned) out of character talk during combat. None of it seems to work so far but I haven't given up. On my next session I'm going to try the following things and see if they work:
1) More pre-prep on my part. I've found that nothing stops an exciting encounter faster than preparing for the thing. Between rolling and sorting initiative, opening up the monster stats in the compendium, noting monster hp, and setting out maps and minis setup takes a long time. By the time I get done my players are already bored and the momentum is all gone. That's why from now on I'm going to have everything set up ahead of time. It may seem like a no brainer but it's surprising how long it took me to realize this might be a problem.
2) A little digital assistance goes a long way. Between the compendium, PDF's of important books and the CB there are plenty of tools out there to help DMs keep the game going and believe me I use 'em as much as possible. But that said there still isn't a way to track stuff in combat (yet). That's why I made my own little excel file where I keep track of rounds of combat, monster HP and rather they are bloodied or not. I also set it up so that it sorts by initiative for me. That helped speed things up a lot.
3) Everybody decides together. This is a strange idea I had. Basically I found that choice paralysis was hurting my group. Everyone was taking several minutes to decide what to do. I can't get them to decide ahead of time (no matter what bonuses or penalties I've used). So I'm done fighting it. Instead I'm going to allow the entire group 2 full minutes to decide what their characters will do on their turns at the start of every round. While they are doing that I will finish setting up for battle and decide what the NPCs and opponents are doing. Then combat proceeds in initiative order as normal but (hopefully) everyone has by that point figured out what they will do that round. We haven't tested it yet but I'm hopeful it will work.
Sounds like grade school, I know, but assign seats by quickness, separate the time wasters, and use the old Grenade under the table rule...you say it, it happens no matter what.
Set aside an hour for snacks, dinner whatever before the game. We all have dinner together first and that gets all of the visiting done and out of the way before the game starts. That gives them less to talk about beyond the gaming itself.
That made a big difference for me.
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A little digital assistance goes a long way. Between the compendium, PDF's of important books and the CB there are plenty of tools out there to help DMs keep the game going and believe me I use 'em as much as possible. But that said there still isn't a way to track stuff in combat (yet). That's why I made my own little excel file where I keep track of rounds of combat, monster HP and rather they are bloodied or not. I also set it up so that it sorts by initiative for me. That helped speed things up a lot.
I think you might be going in the wrong direction here.
When I prep, I get all the stat blocks and notes I need on a single sheet of paper (two at most), which I keep on a clipboard.
I use one of those magnetic init trackers that Paizo publishes, and, like I said, I have one of the players manage init.
And, as someone else suggested, I avoid looking up rules whenever possible. Unless it's critical, if I don't know I wing it. (Fortunately, I'm pretty good with the rules and so are my players, so it's rarely an issue.)
Between these three factors, I'm never opening books, flipping pages, or scrolling through documents. In the odd situation where I do so, I feel it really slows things down.
1) More pre-prep on my part. I've found that nothing stops an exciting encounter faster than preparing for the thing. Between rolling and sorting initiative, opening up the monster stats in the compendium, noting monster hp, and setting out maps and minis setup takes a long time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesRyan
When I prep, I get all the stat blocks and notes I need on a single sheet of paper (two at most), which I keep on a clipboard.
These. A change I made a couple weeks back was to make sure I had stat-blocks pre-printed and on a single sheet of paper. It probably cuts 1/3 of the time and 90% of the nose-picking (dead time) out of a combat.
For anyone who cares, my process is to use the DDI Compendium to pull up the stats, and capture the image with One Note (other apps work fine, but this is what I have). I paste the image of all monsters needed for an encounter into Excel and bold outline one cell per monster next to the image of the stat block. Why Excel? Because it is an unlimited surface on the computer that I can, with a single button click, tell to scale to fit a single print page. I haven't had an encounter big enough that such scaling affected the legibility, but I could always go to a second page quite easily.
For initiative, I've discovered that a 3x5 notecard, cut in half, is the same width as the cards the CB prints off and close enough in height. I have a few I re-use and just write the critter's name on it and erase afterwords. I don't record the exact init number, because it really doesn't matter -- the only thing that does is the actual order.
I use some tiddly-wink type chits for marks, quarries, etc. and hand out colored beads for save-worthy effects.
I just use 4x6 notecards for monsters. I like having them there to shuffle through when it's not my turn. Very easy to reference Defenses (always in the same place).
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