4e / GSL PHB2 comes in at number 28 on USA Today top 150 list

[Kamikaze Midget]

Interpretation #6: Six hyper-intelligent squirrels wearing a robe and bearing a series of different masks have, financed by an eccentric millionaire, bought all the copies, aside from the five or ten people who actually like 4e.

Interpretation #7: After a few months with no great D&D product, people who play the game are eager for a new release.

Interpretation #8: Everyone whose internet connection was down bought a copy instead of pirating it.

Interpretation #9: A wizard did it.

Interpretation #10: Penny Arcade's audience are sycophantically following their dorky overlords in picking up a game of D&D.

Interpretation #11: Wacky fundamentalist types bought them for the express purpose of burning them.

Interpretation #12: Weather Balloon.

Speculation is fun and all, but I fail to see how this little datapoint does anything to sway the great Edition Warz one way or the other. It's far too nebulous for the fanboys to claim true victory, or for the haters to claim propaganda. Attempts to appropriate this are maddening, and cases built on it are like building your house on sand -- it's not a foundation that is secure for any real solid speculation.

Just let it friggin' BE already!

[Gothmog]

Originally Posted by Shemeska

Interpretation 5: Book sales have an initial spike due to a group of hardcore 4e fanboys possessed of their own brand of pro-4e nerd rage which motivates them to go out and buy the books the moment they hit the shelf. That subpopulation aside, the sales quickly drop down after one or two weeks, with little staying power among the normal gaming public.

Of course it's only a possibility, and there's really no way to prove any interpretation without seeing the sales figures that none of us not bound by NDAs have any access too. Very little can be taken from this all, save that the PHB2 in this case sold well its first week relative to the other books in the marketplace.

Methinks the nerdrage is strong in this one.

I know some of the diehard 3e fans are desperately hoping and praying for 4e to fail, but come on...isn't this a little out there? How are the 4e book sales any different than 3e book sales when a new major supplement came out? Right, its not...3e fans went out and bought new 3e books within a week or two of when they were released as well, with an initial spike in sales that drops off after a month or so. Thats not a conspiracy or "pro 4e nerdrage", this pattern of sales is the nature of the beast in the RPG hobby (for any book, not just D&D- ask any gamestore owner or distributer). What is telling is the ranking PHB2 is getting on the USA and NY Times lists- #28 and #4 respectively is VERY impressive for the PHB2, and something 3e never accomplished to my knowledge. In addition, the 4e core 3 books (PHB, MM, and DMG) still have good sales ratings on Amazon even after almost a year, and it tells us 4e is here to stay. That, and the fact that I have seen at least 50 people in my hometown FLGS who had left D&D or never played in the first place playing 4e and having a great time, and most of the local 3e players converting over to 4e with varying degrees of enthusiasm. Heck, I even got three die-hard 3e fans who swore they hated 4e (without having ever played it) to try 4e in my campaign, and now they are both 4e AND 3e fans. Everybody wins!

You also need to remember that in reality, there is no major divide between 3e and 4e fans as a whole. Yes, really- and I've asked people in my FLGS or Barnes & Noble who I've seen looking at 4e or 3e books. The only people aware of this schism are ones that frequent boards like this. And lets be honest....we're not exactly representative of MOST gamers. We are extremists, who really get into our hobby. Most folks who game don't have any idea there are some folks pitching a hissy fit about the existence of 4e (or pro-4e evangelists), and could care less that there are. Most folks are just buying books and playing a game they enjoy, whether they are buying and playing D&D 4e, 3e, Pathfinder, nWoD, Savage Worlds, etc. In the end, it doesn't matter- play what you like, and don't get so worked up over A GAME.

So how about we go with interpretation #6:

4e is selling well despite the downturn in the economy, and while we don't know total unit sales, its high enough to be on several bestseller lists, and is very likely highly profitable for WotC.

(Yeah, I know its not as fun without a conspiracy, but I really don't see THAT many gamers acting as a coherent mass unit to get ANYTHING done. Organizing gamers to do something coherent is like herding cats).

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Shemeska

Interpretation 5: Book sales have an initial spike due to a group of hardcore 4e fanboys possessed of their own brand of pro-4e nerd rage which motivates them to go out and buy the books the moment they hit the shelf. That subpopulation aside, the sales quickly drop down after one or two weeks, with little staying power among the normal gaming public.

Of course it's only a possibility, and there's really no way to prove any interpretation without seeing the sales figures that none of us not bound by NDAs have any access too. Very little can be taken from this all, save that the PHB2 in this case sold well its first week relative to the other books in the marketplace.

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Methinks the nerdrage is strong in this one.

I know some of the diehard 3e fans are desperately hoping ... (cut to save server place)

XP sent your way, Gothmog. Just because you are right.

[ScottS]

(Please note I didn't start the list to make any kind of edition-wars-y point for or against 4e, although I don't personally like the new edition. I was implicitly asking the question, "How could D&D not be getting crushed by the recession?" Would anyone care to address that issue in a non-partisan manner?)

[Dannager]

Originally Posted by ScottS

(Please note I didn't start the list to make any kind of edition-wars-y point for or against 4e, although I don't personally like the new edition. I was implicitly asking the question, "How could D&D not be getting crushed by the recession?" Would anyone care to address that issue in a non-partisan manner?)

History demonstrates that when the economy suffers, families cut back on disconnected activities and spend more time at home, engaging in family activities. Board game sales typically have risen during times of economic stress. In addition, D&D is a phenomenally cheap hobby. $60 buys you and five friends countless hours of entertainment. If buying a $300 video game console and $60 video game for each person is made prohibitively expensive, turning to a source of entertainment like D&D can become a really attractive alternative.

D&D is a great hobby to have in a recession.

[Nymrohd]

Ninja'd

[Bacons]

Originally Posted by Dannager

History demonstrates that when the economy suffers, families cut back on disconnected activities and spend more time at home, engaging in family activities. Board game sales typically have risen during times of economic stress. In addition, D&D is a phenomenally cheap hobby. $60 buys you and five friends countless hours of entertainment. If buying a $300 video game console and $60 video game for each person is made prohibitively expensive, turning to a source of entertainment like D&D can become a really attractive alternative.

And it's worth noting that people still WILL shell out for a console and games in recession time and that, although the video game industry has flagged somewhat, it has done remarkably well compared to other retail sectors. Entertainment is an area in which people will spend up during hard times.

The RPG market can be compared to both the market in board games and in video games more usefully than to the general publishing industry, and these comparisons are hopeful in terms of a sector sustaining itself despite recession.

[Hussar]

Just to add to the chorus of "D&D does well in a recession" let's not forget that in 1982, we were facing a pretty serious recession as well. And that's when D&D was at it's height. So, there's certainly a fair bit of history to suggest that our hobby is fairly recession proof as much as anything can be anyway.

[Mr. Wilson]

WTB DnD thread that does not devolve into a thread war, pst.

/grats on the book, I bought it and really enjoyed it
//waiting eagerly for the designer's take on Expertise
///slashies r kool

[Nikosandros]

I've read the first book in the Twilight series and I've found it boring and poorly written. Therefore, I shall endeavor to post as often as I can that the series has actually been a commercial failure. Anything you read to the contrary is actually a skillful campaign of media manipulation waged by the publisher.

[Keefe the Thief]

Originally Posted by Shemeska

Interpretation 5: Book sales have an initial spike due to a group of hardcore 4e fanboys possessed of their own brand of pro-4e nerd rage which motivates them to go out and buy the books the moment they hit the shelf. That subpopulation aside, the sales quickly drop down after one or two weeks, with little staying power among the normal gaming public.

Of course it's only a possibility, and there's really no way to prove any interpretation without seeing the sales figures that none of us not bound by NDAs have any access too. Very little can be taken from this all, save that the PHB2 in this case sold well its first week relative to the other books in the marketplace.

I love this differentiation: here we have the 4e fanboys buying books nigh-unseen, there the "normal" gamer populace.

No, wait. I dont.

[Shemeska]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Methinks the nerdrage is strong in this one.

My last post was something called hyperbole folks, please don't assume I was being entirely serious. If anything, I was trying to slide in an interpretation of the sales ranking that wasn't among the 'omg 4e wins' side of things just to poke at that POV because frankly the data doesn't allow anyone to definatively claim much of anything, victory or otherwise as some might like to.

We can't compare the ranking to 3e (and someone correct me if I'm wrong here) because the 3e books were never included in previous rankings to my knowledge. And the amazon rankings might as well be comparing apples to oranges between 3e and 4e, simply as the nature of online sales versus physical FLGS sales has so dramatically changed in the last decade.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Shemeska

We can't compare the ranking to 3e (and someone correct me if I'm wrong here) because the 3e books were never included in previous rankings to my knowledge. And the amazon rankings might as well be comparing apples to oranges between 3e and 4e, simply as the nature of online sales versus physical FLGS sales has so dramatically changed in the last decade.

But the 3.x books were on the USA top150 list, as I (amongst others) have posted on these very boards. So there is a basis for comparison.

[Jack99]

Here is the link to one of my previous posts: Click me!

Relevant info quoted below:

USA TODAY calculates a list of 300 best-selling books each week. The first 50 are published in the newspaper, and the top 150 are available online. USA TODAY's list is based on a computer analysis of retail sales nationwide last week. Included are more than 1.5 million volumes from about 4,700 independent, chain, discount and online booksellers.

Reporting stores include: Amazon.com, B. Dalton Bookseller, Barnes & Noble.com, Barnes & Noble Inc., Books-A-Million.com, Books-A-Million and Bookland, Borders Books & Music, Bookstar, Bookstop, Brentano's, Davis Kidd Booksellers (Nashville, Jackson, Memphis in Tenn.), Doubleday Book Shops, Hudson Booksellers, Joseph-Beth Booksellers (Lexington, Ky.; Cincinnati, Cleveland), Powell's Books (Portland, Ore.), Powells.com, R.J. Julia Booksellers (Madison, Conn.), Schuler Books & Music (Grand Rapids, Mich.), Target, Tattered Cover Book Store (Denver), Waldenbooks.

3.5 PHB - 2 weeks on list, peak at 57
3.5 DMG - 1 week on list, peak at 92
3.5 MM - 1 week on list, peak at 112
3.5 Gift Set - does not figure on it (was there even one? I can't recall)

3.5 Magic Item book was there for one week, peaking at 147
3.5 PHB2, 1 week, peak at 128

3.0 PHB - 3 weeks on list, peak at 45
3.0 DMG - 2 weeks on list, peak at 58
3.0 MM - 2 weeks on list, peak at 58
Gift set doesn't figure on it, if there was one

4e PHB - 4 weeks on list, peak at 47
4e DMG - 1 week on list, peak at 128
4e MM - 1 week on list, peak at 147
4e Gift Set - 2 weeks on list, peak at 57

Also note that AV was there one week, peaking at 109, FRPG was there 1 week, peaking at 129

The Player's Handbook 2 comes in at number 28 on the USA Today's top 150 book list. Pretty cool. Gratz to WotC.

There you go. Is this ironclad information? Of course not. But considering the economic climate, I find it hard to dismiss 4e as nothing but a success. Especially note the 4e Gift Set alone basically perfomed equal to what 3.0 and 3.5.

Also note the 3.5 PHB2 compared to the 4e PHB2.

Cheers
did.

[Kamikaze Midget]

But the 3.x books were on the USA top150 list, as I (amongst others) have posted on these very boards. So there is a basis for comparison.

The comparison doesn't really mean anything significant, though. I mean, you can do it for the sake of doing it, and it might be a point of interest, but beyond curiosity, you can't make much of an inference.

Well, I guess you could say that people are still buying a good amount of D&D books, so 4e has demonstrably not been a catastrophic failure, but anyone who wants to argue that 4e has been a catastrophic failure already has to overcome a lot of data to the contrary, so this doesn't add much to the argument.

[ScottS]

"People still went to the movies during the Depression" was on my original list. I guess I can also add, "Parents are still willing to spend (an unreasonable amount of) money on their kids' happiness during a recession", assuming WOTC's accessibility strategy is working at all.

I can accept the basic concept that personal entertainment expenditures don't get crushed as badly as the rest of the retail market during a downturn. What I'm not understanding, though, is who exactly is buying what amounts to a series of $30-40 textbooks with their "fun budget"? Not kids, not newbies? Old-timers that are already hooked on D&D as a brand, right? (The same people that polled as "planning to spend $0 on D&D4e in 2009" on ENW?)

If you make the comparison with movie and video game expenditures, then in fairness you have to point out that movies/vidgames represent "prepackaged fun", while RPG rulebooks are only "potential fun" (assuming that you can find a large enough group of gamer friends that don't suck, and are willing to spend substantial amounts of time not playing, but rather writing game scenarios, and scheduling meeting places/times that are awkward for the least number of people...)

If we try for a more apples-to-apples comparison, and look at 4e module sales, the situation becomes even more murky... If "the game" is doing well, then why aren't the mods selling? A canned scenario is closer to a movie/vidgame in that it's "prepackaged fun" as well as "cheaper" (the argument that they should be priced in the $15-18 range, rather than $25-30, is a separate topic, I guess...). Less investment, less frustration, and hence a better indicator of a "recession hobby", yes?

[Stormtower]

This is pretty darn cool news, and (to me, at least) indicates that even though I disagree with a few of the 4E design decisions, WotC may yet be able to penetrate new markets and grow the culture of tabletop D&D.

Based purely on my own anecdotal evidence, I have noticed that the art, layout and presentation of 4E has attracted the younger set (a couple 15-16yr. old teens, and a 19-yr. old) in a way that my beloved 3.5 never did. Given that, I am extremely curious what else WotC/Hasbro has in mind to attract, retain and excite younger people as customers. As a disproportionate ratio of ENWorld posters are DMs, our population sample here keenly understands how important it is to teach and develop new DMs. I would be fascinated to see a demographic breakdown of purchasers, but I doubt such info is readily available.

Congrats to the 4E design team, and may D&D continue to grow.

[Silverblade The Ench]

Look, you obviously cannot play Conan in 4th ed because:

1) Crom is not a god in any D&D book, since the very rare hard to get 2nd ed Conan adventures (grr, bought a Grenadier fire giant instead back then, now look at the price onf those AD&D Conan books on EBay *cry*).

Crom isn't mentioned in the Manual of the Planes!! WHY!?
His clerics should obviously have the "Toe Jam Stomp" daily that Le Sprague De Camp so wonderously showed their deity has, but noooo! WOTC couldn't add that! Bah, obviously saving it for PHB 4!

2) There is no "Loincloth of Nut-Warming", which is the artifact Conan had on all of his adventures, as indeed, Vallejo took such great pride in painting!

3) There are no "female mammary glands of EXCEPTIONAL size and appeal in 4th ed illustrations"
This is completely against the canon and IP of Conan!!!
If Valeria doesn't have her "Twin Peak Strike" Power, then you cannot play Conan in 4th ed!!

4) And as everyone knows, you cannot roleplay in 4th ed, so that ruins Conan! I mean, there's no skill check for saying "Crom!", in a meaningful way (No Perform skill!!), NOR are Hyperborean or Stygian official languages in D&D!

5) There is no "Humorous side kick" class in 4th ed, meh!
In 4th ed halflings can DO things, instead of being dragged all over Mordor like a limp bloody biscuit!!
Last time I go on a "C.M.O.T Dibblah's Magical Mystery Gollum Tour", I can tell you!
I never even SAW a golem on the whole damn trip! Just a low hit dice mutant version of a Meazel with Low Light Vision and klepto-bloody-mania...and a thing for fish!

HA! there's another thing to prove 4th ed sucks: no iron golems in the 1st MM!! Bah, when I were a lad, we were fighting Iron Golems right off the bat! Even if we didn't know what the posion did, talk about cryptic rules....we died, but we LIKED dying!!!

None of this [W] stuff, oh no!!
Just "Beholders have 45-75 hit points" and spending months trying to figure out WTH that meant in regards to hit dice and saving throws!!
We were hard core cryptozoollogist cryptologist mathematicians!

Bah! Conan says he! Humbug, HUMBUG, says I!

*whistles innocently...*

[Wormwood]

Originally Posted by Silverblade The Ench

<snip the awesome>

*whistles innocently...*

*applauds sincerely*

[cignus_pfaccari]

Originally Posted by Silverblade The Ench

Bah! Conan says he! Humbug, HUMBUG, says I!

*whistles innocently...*

Okay, that was XP worthy.

Brad