Classes Essence of Necromancy

[Byronic]

I've been thinking, what makes a Necromancer a Necromancer?

In 4th edition some of the classes have been reinvented, given mechanics unlike previous editions. Classes do not need to be a direct translation from previous editions.

Which begs the question, what is the essence of a Necromancer?

What parts from former editions were particularly good?

Do you know any good examples from fiction? Mythology?

So far I've got (with examples):

Animating the Dead
- Might recycle Old Corpses or simply use Enemies for minions
- Use them for other effects (Corpse Explosion for example)

Sacrificing Lifeforce
- Sacrificing Healing Surges to heal allies
- Powering spells (like animate dead)
- To make spells stronger (extra damage or effects)

Conjuring Restless Spirits
- For information (utility spells and rituals)
- As an attack (for example ghostly hands grasping the enemy in place)

Morbid symbolism
- Necromancers work close with dead things and might have trappings not unlike a gravedigger and such.
- spells are usually more morbid (for example a grave opening up for the enemy to fall in)

Poison and Bone spells (from Diablo)

Curses/Hexes

Anything I'm forgetting? What should a 4th edition Necromancer have? Whether power, fluff or otherwise.

(I might add a poll later on with all the suggestions)

[WarlockLord]

Those all seem good. I wonder if they shouldn't get resurrection as a 'classic' ability, as well. As for attack magic, this varies by whom you ask, though undead minions and spirits are usually part of it. Probably a lot of necrotic.

[Rechan]

The Essence of Necromancy is Romancing the Nec.

[Nymrohd]

I like poison, blood, and bone spells, spells that deal with souls and spirits, curses and general creepiness. Animating the dead is cool though I prefer summoning spirits. Necro's have great flavor potential if done right.

Also avascular mass. Make it happen!

[Rechan]

More seriously...

What parts from former editions were particularly good?

Do you know any good examples from fiction? Mythology?

2e's Necromancer Handbook had it divided rather nicely. There was your "Black Necromancy", which was just straight up death magic.

Then you had your White Necromancy, which dealt with combating the dead. Warding areas from allowing the dead to enter (i.e. consecrating), hunting the undead, and weakening/destroying the dead.

And there was Grey necromancy, which skirted the line.

As far as Mythology is concerned, I think that there is less of the "Evil Necromancer" and just "The individual involved with the dead". Priests who conduct funerals to help the dead reach their final destinations. Keeping the dead at bay, etc.

As far as mythology is concerned, I get more of a "Mystic/medium" vibe. A seance-like feel where the Mystic convinces the ghost to go away, instead of holding up a holy symbol and destroying them. Or those that commune with the dead, to get their messages across to those of the living.

In 3e, there was a campaign setting called the Scarred Lands. In it was a city of Neutral necromancers, who used Necromancy much like we use conventional medicine: they were trying to unlock the mysteries of the body and health.

Animating the Dead
- Might recycle Old Corpses or simply use Enemies for minions
- Use them for other effects (Corpse Explosion for example)

Don't forget creating special types of undead like zombies with blades for arms, etc etc.

Another trick I'm a fan of is using the dead as remote conduits. Seeing/speaking through them, or casting spells through them (in 4e terms, this would be like the Shaman having Line of Sight/Effect starting from their Spirit Companion), or utilities that allow remote viewing/conversing, similar to "Ambassador Imp" or perhaps Animal Messenger.

Sacrificing Lifeforce
- Sacrificing Healing Surges to heal allies
- Powering spells (like animate dead)
- To make spells stronger (extra damage or effects)

One thing I've liked that hasn't been used too much isn't sacrificing, but transferring. For instance, draining target A of x HP (thus doing x number in damage), and giving target B x number of HP.

Another would be like "gaining the power of my enemy". Either by consuming part of them (cannibalism), or "stealing" their power while they are alive.

Conjuring Restless Spirits
- For information (utility spells and rituals)
- As an attack (for example ghostly hands grasping the enemy in place)

How about allowing the Restless Spirit to possess the target, or even the Necromancer? The necromancer who takes in a spirit, and is empowered by that effect.

Morbid symbolism
- Necromancers work close with dead things and might have trappings not unlike a gravedigger and such.

Other sources of "Stigma of the Dead": Morticians, Taxidermists.

Poison and Bone spells (from Diablo)

Curses/Hexes

Why is that associated with Necromancer? I mean, aside from "Diablo Did it"... why?

I've never thought of the Necromancer as having any sort of curses/hexes. That seems to be the Witch/Witch Doctor/Voodoo type of thing. Poison seems more... biomancery.

But if you're going to go that route, you might as well tack on disease/blight/corruption.

Personally, I wish there was more of the White/Grey necromancy, or the Mystic/Medium stuff, and less "Mwahaha I play with ANIMATED CORPSES and snuff out your life force!".

Edit: Oo, Nymrohd; forgot about blood.

[Nymrohd]

I like the bone magic of the diablo necromancer. Raising a wall of bones from the ground is just pure win (though exploding a bloodied opponent and making a wall with his blood vessels is even better ).

More seriously, a 4E necromacer will need to have some of his spells/mysteries (what I think shadow powers will be called) affect the undead specifically since he will probably have a heavy necrotic theme which can be crippling against a rather large number of monsters. I expect him to be a controller with leader/defender subroles (leader because he should be able to heal by stealing life, defender by means of raising big damage sponges). Int primary, Wis/Con secondary.

[Fallen Seraph]

This actually relates to one thing I REALLY want to know about the Shadow Power Source. Does it deal with Spirits? This is a perplexing question for me cause spirits of the dead fits quite nicely into Shadowfell, Necromancer, Illusions (Ghosts can seem like Illusions), Death, etc. vibe of what we think Shadow is like.

However, Primal has a very good grasp on Spirits. More natural yes, more animalistic and less corrupt yes. But these are things that are so easily refluffed I wonder whether Wizards will still use Spirits much with Shadow.

This interests me since I would love to see Spirits play a strong role with the Necromancer.

• Spirits could be used to possess dead bodies to bring them to unlife.
• Different kinds of Spirits could possess the Necromancer or others to gain certain effects. Imagine a Spirit who died of poison possessing someone and they begin to suffer poison effects.
• Implements would be something tied to the Spirits the Necromancer uses. So a scrap of a portrait, a doll, etc. Could get lots of good backstory from that.
• All the communication back and forth from Shadowfell to Necromancer with a Spirit emissary.

There is just so much you can do with Spirits that is really flavourful. Now this could be just one build for the Necromancer, the other could be more classic kind with corrupting the dead, use of blood, poison, etc.

I wouldn't mind if that kind which is less mystical and more physical if they took a Scientific bent. Yes the Necromancer uses magic, but he knows how to use it properly because of scientific research on the bodies, etc. Lets see a Dr. Frankenstein version of a Necromancer.

Edit: A little continuation of Spirit discussion. It just popped into my mind too, I wonder if Psionics will deal with Spirits. What with ESP and all. Well hopefully, the more Spirits the happier I will be.

[Nymrohd]

It's quite true that the shaman can be reflavored to a witch doctor fairly well and there is some common ground between that theme and the necromancer. I still feel though that the necromancer should be somewhat darker.

Also for implements: athames (daggers) and fetishes (possibly totems or a new category).

[Fallen Seraph]

Originally Posted by Nymrohd

It's quite true that the shaman can be reflavored to a witch doctor fairly well and there is some common ground between that theme and the necromancer. I still feel though that the necromancer should be somewhat darker.

Also for implements: athames (daggers) and fetishes (possibly totems or a new category).

Yeah, actually implements is one way I could see it taking a darker edge. My blurb about it being something from the Spirits life is how I could see it being darker.

Since your literally holding onto the last scrap tying this Spirit to the world and either forcing it to stay by not destroying it, or threatening to destroy it and cutting the Spirit loose. So unlike Primal where it is a mutual thing this is very much a forceful and manipulative arrangement.

Now, I am sure you could lighten and darken this as you wish. Perhaps it is a demonic spirit and your controlling its actions to stop it causing harm. Or if you want darker it is a innocent child, etc.

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by Fallen Seraph

I wouldn't mind if that kind which is less mystical and more physical if they took a Scientific bent. Yes the Necromancer uses magic, but he knows how to use it properly because of scientific research on the bodies, etc. Lets see a Dr. Frankenstein version of a Necromancer.

Same could be said for the Wizard.

As far as Spirits, I honestly draw a line between the notion of "Ancestral spirits/Nature spirits" and "GHOSTS/wraiths/etc".

In my mind, Primal Spirit = Kami. A very small being of divine energy, who is a living metaphor/representation of something.

As far as "Dark vs. Light", I honestly expect them to take it about as far as the Warlock. Or as the Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror.

But implements? I'm a fan of Skulls. Taking a skull and drawing mystical runes all over it. Or maybe some other talisman fashioned from bone and such. Or some other potent item that has been Stained by Death (a noose used to hang thirteen murderers, a dagger used by a starcrossed couple to commit suicide, etc). But then, that's more "Implements as story devices, not just magical items".

[Fallen Seraph]

Yeah I think there is a definite difference between Primal Spirits and Spirits of The Dead. I am just wondering if Wizard views it that way too. Which makes me wonder simply because if they do view them as the same, Primal has Spirits quite covered.

Hmm... I guess Wizard too. But, I dunno, I can't imagine them digging through dead bodies, poking nerves, etc. Which is more what I am thinking of. They need that real scientific knowledge to use their magic.

I like those implements too. I definitely agree on "story implements", this is something I would like to see, no matter what form it takes.

[Nymrohd]

I think WotC also differentiates between Primal Spirits and Spirits of the Dead, at least judging from the Shadowfell part of MoP and the fluff in PHB2. Primal spirits never seem to depart the world for the shadowfell while the spirits of the dead pass through the shadowfell and from there go beyond. Blackmailing souls to do your bidding by threatening them with eternal oblivion (by using sacrifical daggers that can cut their links to this world) or controlling them with what little ties them to reality (by making fetishes from items they used to own when alive) is the kind of flavor I want to see for the necromancer. Unfortunately it does not sound like the kind of think WotC would do.

[Nymrohd]

After some thinking this is what I want from a necromancer:
Role: Controller, Primary: Int, Secondary Con/Wis
Four builts:
Osteomancer: Con build, defender subrole, ranged/melee subrole defender with bone armor and weapons of bone can summon walls and tombs made of bones can create skeletons from the fallen. Thinking a bit of Kimimaro from Naruto
Blood Mage: Con build, ranged subrole leader, can manipulate his blood and that of his enemies, can sacrifice surges to get greater effect out of some spells, has limited healing. Can summon blood elementals or cast spells like bloodstar and avasculate.
Spirit Caller: Wis build, ranged subrole striker, uses spectres and wraits to attack opponents can summon them or force them to possess corpses or even the living. Can trap the souls of the fallen.
Don't have a name for this built: Wis build, ranged subrole defender, can animate the dead and twist flesh, maybe has an undead companion or can get to create undead outside of combat through short rest dailies?, can use powers similar to those of the undead.

Not likely to get this, but this is what I would like.

[Kask]

Originally Posted by Byronic

I've been thinking, what makes a Necromancer a Necromancer?

In 4th edition some of the classes have been reinvented, given mechanics unlike previous editions. Classes do not need to be a direct translation from previous editions.

Which begs the question, what is the essence of a Necromancer?

What parts from former editions were particularly good?

Do you know any good examples from fiction? Mythology?

Here is the historical place to start.
Function:noun Etymology:alteration of Middle English nigromancie, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin nigromantia, by folk etymology from Late Latin necromantia, from Late Greek nekromanteia, from Greek nekr- + -manteia -mancyDate:1522 1 : conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

[Nymrohd]

I doubt that the concept of the necromancer in D&D has much in common with the oracles of the Necromanteion of Dodoni in ancient Greece (who predicted the future by shifting through the entrails of dead creatures or burning those remains as well as interpreting omens given they lived by the river Acheron, the entrance to Hades). Nothing about animating the dead there.

[Kask]

Originally Posted by Nymrohd

I doubt that the concept of the necromancer in D&D has much in common with the oracles of the Necromanteion of Dodoni in ancient Greece (who predicted the future by shifting through the entrails of dead creatures or burning those remains as well as interpreting omens given they lived by the river Acheron, the entrance to Hades). Nothing about animating the dead there.

Read the definition.

[tuxgeo]

Originally Posted by Byronic

I've been thinking, what makes a Necromancer a Necromancer?

In 4th edition some of the classes have been reinvented, given mechanics unlike previous editions. Classes do not need to be a direct translation from previous editions.

Which begs the question, what is the essence of a Necromancer?

(1) It invites the question; it does not "beg" it. ("Begging the question" is the official name of one of the informal logical fallacies.)
(2) The "essence of a Necromancer" is putrescence. ("You're welcome!") (Well, that's what they all smell like. . . .)
(3) The thing that makes a Necromancer a Necromancer is the rules. If a rule states that a certain character is a Necromancer, then he or she (or it) is; otherwise not. Essential matters of flavor matter not in the brave new edition.

[Piratecat]

Originally Posted by tuxgeo

(1) It invites the question; it does not "beg" it. ("Begging the question" is the official name of one of the informal logical fallacies.)
(2) The "essence of a Necromancer" is putrescence. ("You're welcome!") (Well, that's what they all smell like. . . .)
(3) The thing that makes a Necromancer a Necromancer is the rules. If a rule states that a certain character is a Necromancer, then he or she (or it) is; otherwise not. Essential matters of flavor matter not in the brave new edition.

Gentle reminder: there are times that being pedantic is essential to clarifying the conversation, and there are times like this one. It's usually best to contribute to the discussion instead of snarky editorializing or becoming an unpaid editor. I think you had an interesting point in #2, but it's getting lost in the rest of your post.

Thanks.

[Byronic]

Originally Posted by tuxgeo

Essential matters of flavor matter not in the brave new edition.

Maybe in your game but I'm thrusting flavour down my players throat. We're also slowly abandoning silly things like "one summon at a time because we don't want the Druid player to have an extra 30 seconds of play"

It's one of the things we're introducing with the necromancer. x amount of minions that take instinctive actions to kill the nearest living things. Now that's an entertaining power

[Irda Ranger]

In 4E-speak, I would say the essence of Necromancy is manipulating the relationships between Body, Soul and Animus; as well as the ability to remove or imbue vitae and mortae from/into the Body, Soul or Animus.