General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
If you're angry that you can't buy old TSR material, give WotC a month and they'll be selling to you again through the DDI.
If you're angry that you can't download your remaining 5 PDF copies, you should be pissed that RPGnow sold you a product that they can't deliver on.
Wizard is within its rights. RPGnow got caught with its pants down. Your bile is misdirected.
No, sir. I won't be giving WotC jack-crap, and they will not be selling to me through any outlet.
I don't care what WotC's rights are, there are things from a basic level of customer courtesy and fan relations that you do not do. You do not give ZERO DAYS NOTICE before cutting off already-purchased downloads. That's their right? OK. Does that make it anything other a foolish, inconsiderate, thoughtless, insulting move? No. It also would have been their right to give us some sort of notice. It would have been their right to work out some sort of alternative consideration for people who actually paid for their electronic product, one that retained some modicum of publisher/gamer trust. That's not the "right" they went with, is it?
There are too many game publishers who work at giving a crap, putting out a quality product, and show basic consideration for their fans to deal with this, or even spend time defending it. Customers and gamers deserve better, and it's out there.
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If you're angry that you can't buy old TSR material, give WotC a month and they'll be selling to you again through the DDI.
If you're angry that you can't download your remaining 5 PDF copies, you should be pissed that RPGnow sold you a product that they can't deliver on.
Wizard is within its rights. RPGnow got caught with its pants down. Your bile is misdirected.
Blah.
Did WOTC give rpgnow or Paizo ( or the customers) any warning whatsoever? No.
If I recall correctly, you have to give at least 30 days notice before you pull products from the site.
30 days is easily enough time for a customer to to download something 5 times, and I seriously doubt that OBS would ignore the fact that one of their largest-selling clients is canceling their account and not tell customers to download the products they had purchased before it was too late.
From what I can tell, WOTC just pulled the plug, which is likely a breach of contract on their part.
Anyone think they'll try to somehow use this to promote DDI subscriptions?
That said, anyone else suspect that DDI sales aren't hitting expectations? Character visualizer, dungeon builder, and virtual game table all having had no news in months, getting on a year past when they were originally supposed to launch, and links to info on them getting removed from the DDI page?
Man I so un-observant I hadn't even notice their cancellation removal from the website.
I can't think of a logical answer to this OR a snappy response. You're dead serious. You actually think that WotC has done nothing wrong here. I..am speechless.
Respectfully submitted:
I sell a product to Cirno. Cirno, Inc. tell its customers that they will be able to buy Filcher Paste to the end of time.
I stop producing Filcher Paste. Cirno Inc.'s customers are pissed ...
Because of promises I made?
No. Because of promises Cirno Inc. made.
But you're all pissed a Filcher Paste.
WotC is under no obligation to keep selling their PDFs. But folks are behaving like it is their right to buy them.
Phhhbbt.
WotC will sell the PDFs again. But not through RPGnow, who sold what they can't deliver.
__________________ ENworld OAF (Old-school Admirer of 4th edition)
Last edited by Filcher; 7th April 2009 at 06:24 AM..
Reason: Drunk. But don't tell Granny.
It's news like this that makes me glad that I stopped buying any WotC products once they announced 4E, and put all my gaming funds over into Paizo. Not only did it save me a couple thousand a year, it supports a company that truly cares about its fans, and helps ensure that the legacy lives on in non-corporate setting.
And while the illegal pirated pdfs will remain on torrent sites for a long time to come, all of WotC's products are still legally available via eBay and used book stores for those looking for bargains, with the added benefit of sending no money to WotC's coffers! That's how I rounded out the rest of my collection (4E excluded).
I sell a product to Cirno. Cirno, Inc. tell its customers that they will be able to buy Filcher Paste to the end of time.
I stop producing Filcher Paste. Cirno Inc.'s customers are pissed ...
Because of promises I made?
No. Because of promises Cirno Inc. made.
But you're all pissed a Cirno Inc.
WotC is under no obligation to keep selling their PDFs. But folks are behaving like it is their right to buy them.
Phhhbbt.
WotC will sell the PDFs again. But not through RPGnow, who sold what they can't deliver.
Do you not understand business?? If Wizards gives RPGNow the right to sell it's PDFs, people purchase them then they get taken away by Wizards, then thats Wizards wrong doing. Sure RPGnow should have to refund it's customers and Wizards needs to refund RPGNow, they didn't get to sell those PDF's for free.
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I'm kinda confused. I mean I get going after pirates and all. But the hardcopy books have also shown up on filesharing sites. Meanwhile, I've made tons of WotC and TSR purchases on RPGnow without illegally sharing any. So because of crooks I can't purchase any more. To quote my favorite line to use on a car dealer - "Why won't you let me buy this car today?"
My suspicion is that contracts are more nuanced than you are suggesting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by XunValdorl of Kilsek
If Wizards gives RPGNow the right to sell it's PDFs, people purchase them then they get taken away by Wizards, then thats Wizards wrong doing.
No. Everyone that bought a PDF could have downloaded it. We're angry because we won't be able to downloaded it the other 4 times, as promised by RPGnow.
I haven't seen the contract that RPGnow made with Wizards. I'll make that case that you haven't either. But I gave my money to RPGnow, who can't supply what they promised: 5 downloads of my PDF.
__________________ ENworld OAF (Old-school Admirer of 4th edition)
Last edited by Filcher; 7th April 2009 at 06:35 AM..
Reason: Still drunk. Off to drink more. Let me know who wins in the morning.
From what I can tell, WOTC just pulled the plug, which is likely a breach of contract on their part.
Contracts do not work that way.
Electronic media does not work that way.
Think it through.
I write a song, which will be sold exclusively through your online music retailer in mp3 form. I give you a copy of the mp3, and you allow people who pay you money to download that mp3. Then we split the money.
Lets say that our contract requires 30 days notice before cancellation.
How can I "pull the plug?" Lets say I order you to stop selling the mp3, and I don't give you 30 days notice. What do my words accomplish? You still have the mp3, and the right to sell it. What can I do? Its not like the data is piped from my master server to your customer. I can't turn it off like water from a faucet. I can't sue you either since you have a valid contract. My words are just talk.
One of the following scenarios happened.
1. WOTC didn't have a 30 day notice clause for terminating the license. They had a much shorter period, maybe even 24 hours, which they followed. I suspect this one as most likely.
2. WOTC did have a 30 day notice clause, and offered RPGNOW and the other retailers a new, more lucrative contract in the future if they agreed to cancel this contract now. RPGNOW decided that breaching their contracts with their customers was the better choice, terminated their current contract, and accepted the new one.
3. WOTC did have a 30 day notice clause, and gave notice 30 days ago. No one told the customers until today.
And I suppose, for the sake of argument, we can include:
4. No one at WOTC, Paizo, or RPGNOW has any clue what their licensing agreement says.
It seems clear to me that whoever is in charge of WotC right now is in fact a secret fan of Pathfinder. Why else would WotC be handing down such ridiculous decisions? Clearly, there's a secret superhero for Paizo pulling the strings. Nothing else makes any kind of sense.
That said, I echo the words of Piratecat:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piratecat
What I find most annoying about this is that the honest people are being punished, and it's not going to slow down the dishonest people one bit.
Yeah, that pretty well sums it up.
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I write a song, which will be sold exclusively through your online music retailer in mp3 form. I give you a copy of the mp3, and you allow people who pay you money to download that mp3. Then we split the money.
Lets say that our contract requires 30 days notice before cancellation.
How can I "pull the plug?" Lets say I order you to stop selling the mp3, and I don't give you 30 days notice. What do my words accomplish? You still have the mp3, and the right to sell it. What can I do? Its not like the data is piped from my master server to your customer. I can't turn it off like water from a faucet. I can't sue you either since you have a valid contract. My words are just talk.
One of the following scenarios happened.
1. WOTC didn't have a 30 day notice clause for terminating the license. They had a much shorter period, maybe even 24 hours, which they followed. I suspect this one as most likely.
2. WOTC did have a 30 day notice clause, and offered RPGNOW and the other retailers a new, more lucrative contract in the future if they agreed to cancel this contract now. RPGNOW decided that breaching their contracts with their customers was the better choice, terminated their current contract, and accepted the new one.
3. WOTC did have a 30 day notice clause, and gave notice 30 days ago. No one told the customers until today.
And I suppose, for the sake of argument, we can include:
4. No one at WOTC, Paizo, or RPGNOW has any clue what their licensing agreement says.
I agree with the man with 3000 more posts than I have. Experience points for all!
__________________ ENworld OAF (Old-school Admirer of 4th edition)
1. WOTC didn't have a 30 day notice clause for terminating the license. They had a much shorter period, maybe even 24 hours, which they followed. I suspect this one as most likely.
2. WOTC did have a 30 day notice clause, and offered RPGNOW and the other retailers a new, more lucrative contract in the future if they agreed to cancel this contract now. RPGNOW decided that breaching their contracts with their customers was the better choice, terminated their current contract, and accepted the new one.
3. WOTC did have a 30 day notice clause, and gave notice 30 days ago. No one told the customers until today.
And I suppose, for the sake of argument, we can include:
4. No one at WOTC, Paizo, or RPGNOW has any clue what their licensing agreement says.
5. "Pull it down or we're going to sue you." "Can we afford to be sued by a major corporation? No? Okay, we're pulling it down."
I think WOTC has forgotten that business, even big ones, survive on customer satisfaction. I think they will get reminded of this basic fact soon.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
I write a song, which will be sold exclusively through your online music retailer in mp3 form. I give you a copy of the mp3, and you allow people who pay you money to download that mp3. Then we split the money.
Lets say that our contract requires 30 days notice before cancellation.
How can I "pull the plug?" Lets say I order you to stop selling the mp3, and I don't give you 30 days notice. What do my words accomplish? You still have the mp3, and the right to sell it. What can I do? Its not like the data is piped from my master server to your customer. I can't turn it off like water from a faucet. I can't sue you either since you have a valid contract. My words are just talk.
One of the following scenarios happened.
1. WOTC didn't have a 30 day notice clause for terminating the license. They had a much shorter period, maybe even 24 hours, which they followed. I suspect this one as most likely.
2. WOTC did have a 30 day notice clause, and offered RPGNOW and the other retailers a new, more lucrative contract in the future if they agreed to cancel this contract now. RPGNOW decided that breaching their contracts with their customers was the better choice, terminated their current contract, and accepted the new one.
3. WOTC did have a 30 day notice clause, and gave notice 30 days ago. No one told the customers until today.
And I suppose, for the sake of argument, we can include:
4. No one at WOTC, Paizo, or RPGNOW has any clue what their licensing agreement says.
I agree with the man with 3000 more posts than I have. Experience points for all!
__________________ ENworld OAF (Old-school Admirer of 4th edition)
I financial analyst once told me that if I want to know the health of a company today, I should look at its financial records, but if I wanted to know the health of the company tomorrow, I should look at its customer service. "Because you can only p*** off your customers for so long before they go elsewhere." (Yes, that is an exact quote.)
Two years ago this month, Wizards made their first major step in failing to act like an industry leader by cancelling the Dungeon and Dragon Magazines and failing to inform the public themselves. They allowed Paizo to deliver the official announcement while they remained silent. They were unable to own up to their own actions for a solid week when they finally caved and continued the mags as electronic only publications.
Today, in my opinion, they have taken their last act as an industry leader. Their actions over the past two years have become increasingly inexplicible. No longer can I, or anyone else I fear, look to Wizards for leadership or the new direction that role playing should go. No longer can Wizards claim to be on the cutting edge of the way products should be produced. No longer is Wizards the gold standard of the industry. Others will rise up to claim their place. May they learn what not to do.
Good-bye Wizards. May your Coast be peaceful and tranquil. I shall not visit you there.
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D. McCoy 1693
Last edited by dmccoy1693; 7th April 2009 at 06:56 AM..
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