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I didn't get to my WoTC PDFS on DriveThruRPG on time , and now they're gone.
Well, this is the last time I spend a dime on a WoTC product. I don't have to bend over and take it in my leisure time. And I won't.
For the first time, I'm glad WoTC let all their best game designers go, because those people can now support the systems I'll be buying. And again, I'm very thankful for Paizo!
Hahaha, are you still going on about your "WotC is TOTALLY JUSTIFIED in screwing over their fanbase" thing there?
Look, you're the only one claiming that WotC is completely in the right here. The only one. Shouldn't that be a hint?
Seriously, there's tons of people ON THIS THREAD that have defended every single other thing WotC has done. And even they are drawing teh line here.
Stop trying to claim that the greviences are because of some bizarro "OMG I MUST HATE WIZARDS" conspiracy. It's not only complete BS, but it cheapens and insults everyone around you.
WOTC is completely in the right here.
There. Now you know two.
Also, while definitely not all, a disproportionate number of the squeaky wheels over this issue are also people who already did not like WOTC to begin with.
I didn't get to my WoTC PDFS on DriveThruRPG on time , and now they're gone.
Well, this is the last time I spend a dime on a WoTC product. I don't have to bend over and take it in my leisure time. And I won't.
For the first time, I'm glad WoTC let all their best game designers go, because those people can now support the systems I'll be buying. And again, I'm very thankful for Paizo!
Ken
Haffrung,
Respectfully, it is RPGnow that owes you a refund.
RPGnow set up the conditions for the purchase, and your expectations (and mine). Their supplier had a change of mind, and RPGnow is unable to fulfill their commitment (5 copies).
If RPGnow didn't have the power to enforce the maintenance of 5 copies for download, they shouldn't have sold them to us.
__________________ ENworld OAF (Old-school Admirer of 4th edition)
The best reason I can imagine is so that the pirates didn't get any notice either and so didn't download one final bunch of products... but it's still not a very good reason compared to the customer anger it has caused.
Cheers!
That'd work, except that they're pirates, so they downloaded the first time and seeded the net like a prolific fertility clinic.
While I'm not one to push, outside of role-playing, a conspiracy theory, I'm fairly comfortable in looking at WotC's motivations and timing here with a curious, cynical eye, but that could be my psychology coursework talking.
They are getting rid of all their PDF's from all editions of D&D, not just 4E
Easy. If people can't find books or pdfs of previous editions of DnD then they can't play those games. If they want to play DnD, then they are forced to buy over priced 4e books and eventually over priced 4e pdfs from WoTC.
Why would you ever need 5 copies of a pdf? These things are small enough to fit into e-mails. I would only ever need one download. I can understand 2 in case the first gets corrupted.
P. Cirno, I think you've misunderstood my argument. I'm not disputing *you*, I'm disputing the conclusions you are positing. Two different things, that keep us friends in the end, while permitting intelligent dialog without resorting to full caps. It's not a popularity contest.
I maintain that, despite the backlash, Wizards was within its rights to stop selling their product.
I maintain that, despite the misdirected bile, the PDF middlemen were wrong to offer to sell something they didn't have control over (5 copies).
I maintain that everyone is angry at the wrong entity.
Business is perception. We, the customer base, perceive that it is WOTC's fault we no longer have access to PDF's we were planning on one day buying or no longer have access to additional downloads if our house burns down and destroys all our digital copies of PDF's we have already bought. I do not see how RPGNow, or Paizo, is at fault for WOTC's knee jerk and foolish action.
We perceive that WOTC is punishing us law abiding customers for the actions of a few thieves. Insinuating we are also some how guilty, since we are being punished.
So what matters is that WOTC has once again slapped a segment of their customer base in the face.
Guess what? It is our CUSTOMER GIVEN RIGHT to be angry and to quit supporting WOTC.
So I personally do not care what rights you think WOTC has, what I care about is my right to be angry and to stop supporting WOTC completely.
It seems people have forgotten that companies ultimately answers to their customers. They live and die by the happiness of their customers. I think this may have angered enough of WOTC's customers to actually get them to exercise their right to not support WOTC. Hopefully on a large enough scale to remind and reawaken WOTC to this fact, and show them how badly they have been failing at performing such an important part of business.
Hopefully it will then motivate them to get off their collective hind ends and to actively and aggressively make their customers happy.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
As a past owner of a brick and mortar store (different hobby - aquarium not gaming), I applaud WOTC for shutting down PDF purchases. Now if they could just do something about Amazon, we might be able to save at least a few places people can go to talk to, and game with, actual live humans, and also save those live humans' jobs.
We're angry because we won't be able to downloaded it the other 4 times, as promised by RPGnow.
I'm sorry, but that's just pure, unadulterated, . People are angry because WotC pulled their entire PDF catalog from circulation everywhere, indefinitely, without giving any notice whatsoever to consumers. Not only does this punish people who purchased their PDFs legally by making such legal channels no longer available, it also does nothing to significantly hinder piracy while also potentially harming other PDF publishers.
WotC has, via their reps in these very threads, said that they're through with PDFs and are now looking into alternative distribution methods. Your assertion that they'll be back selling PDFs within a week or two has no basis in any current reality. They might return to PDFs, sure but that currently isn't their plan according to what precious little their reps have revealed. How do you think that will effect the PDF market?
One of the biggest players in PDFs just packed up their shop and went home, giving only a few hours notice. If I quit a 9 to 5 job, it's basic courtesy for me to give at least two weeks notice — but WotC gets to walk out on a huge business arrangement with only a few hours of notice? This is almost certainly legal but it sure as hell isn't considerate or professional.
WotC might not be evil but they sure as hell aren't a company that I want to give my money to anymore.
Respectfully, it is RPGnow that owes you a refund.
RPGnow set up the conditions for the purchase, and your expectations (and mine). Their supplier had a change of mind, and RPGnow is unable to fulfill their commitment (5 copies).
If RPGnow didn't have the power to enforce the maintenance of 5 copies for download, they shouldn't have sold them to us.
You know, you and Mistwell can keep repeating that mantra as much as you want, but It did NOT suddenly become okay to insult someone because you happen to disagree with them. ~ PCat
Have a nice day.
Last edited by Piratecat; 7th April 2009 at 04:02 PM..
Respectfully, it is RPGnow that owes you a refund.
RPGnow set up the conditions for the purchase, and your expectations (and mine). Their supplier had a change of mind, and RPGnow is unable to fulfill their commitment (5 copies).
If RPGnow didn't have the power to enforce the maintenance of 5 copies for download, they shouldn't have sold them to us.
Perception is all that matters here man. WOTC used up any goodwill they had over the past 2 years, so the benefit of the doubt is gone. Not too many people blame RPGnow, because we can relate to them as a small customer screwed over by the megacorporation. Not to get into politics too much, but look what is happening in the world today? What's happening to the little guy? Isn't it natural then to project all that rage upwards to the ultimate cause of the problem?
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
Dude, all of those polls don't seem to be doing much aside from cluttering up the message board. You should probably keep most of the questions here. In this thread. Where we're already talking about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filcher
I maintain that, despite the backlash, Wizards was within its rights to stop selling their product.
I maintain that, despite the misdirected bile, the PDF middlemen were wrong to offer to sell something they didn't have control over (5 copies).
I maintain that everyone is angry at the wrong entity.
You conclusion doesn't follow from your argument. Just because WotC had the legal right to do this doesn't mean that they don't deserve a backlash for doing it. Even if the retailers shouldn't have offered a promise they couldn't back up, WotC presumably knew, and didn't really care (and probably had it in the initial contract that they could do this at any time, similar to the language in the GSL).
Even if the online retailers can be fairly blamed for promising something they couldn't actually control, that doesn't mean WotC gets indemnity for doing a pointless, boneheaded, scaredey-cat tactic like this offering the excuse of "piracy."
Yeah, you can be legitimately angry at the retailers. They shouldn't have promised something they couldn't deliver. But you can ALSO be legitimately angry at WotC, and, in fact, given the reasons for the decision and the ramifications and suddenness of it, and the fact that WotC were the ones who made the decision (with the retailers just abiding by the agreements they can), WotC is certainly to blame, and, in my mind, to blame for a much more massive and idiotic move.
I'm usually a big fan of WotC's policies, and they had shown an admirable willingness to engage the online community in a smart, levelheaded manner. This is a 180 from that. After building up the bad blood from the GSL debacle, this seems like it might be a full-fledged new direction rather than just a fluke or oversight.
Just because the retailers also screwed up doesn't mean WotC gets a free pass, or gets the heat off their backs. WotC isn't responsible for the agreements the retailers made, but they are responsible for their own behavior, and the idiot motives behind that behavior.
Why would you ever need 5 copies of a pdf? These things are small enough to fit into e-mails. I would only ever need one download. I can understand 2 in case the first gets corrupted.
Have you ever had a hard drive die? I have I would have lost everything if I hadn't made backups. However some people may not have made backups because they could download it again. A guy on WotC forums had his laptop stolen today, he hadn't backed up, so now he has lost his paid for PDFs despite thinking he was backed up on RPGnow when he purchased them.
For those of us with the means to do so, let's go to RPGNow or the ENWorld PDF store and support the publishers who are selling their PDFs by purchasing some of them.
If you don't want the small press to suffer from this, do something about it. Go spend a little money on something as a way of saying thank you for doing right by the customer.
__________________ Darrin Drader
Freelance Writer/Game Designer
Previously posting as Whisperfoot
I'm sorry, but that's just pure, unadulterated, . People are angry because WotC pulled their entire PDF catalog from circulation everywhere, indefinitely, without giving any notice whatsoever to consumers.
Drakeh,
WotC didn't sell you the promise of 5 PDFs. RPGnow did.
For example: I'm a middleman who sells you a year's worth of eggs. You pay up front. My supplier's chickens die.
You come to me for eggs. I don't have any eggs. I point down the road at the chicken farm, but don't offer you your prorated money back.
Who are you angry at?
Quote:
Originally Posted by joethelawyer
Perception is all that matters here man. WOTC used up any goodwill they had over the past 2 years, so the benefit of the doubt is gone.
I think jtlawyer has the gist of it. Perception. Obviously, I can't convince my friends here otherwise, but I'm okay with that. We all still roll dice together at Gen Con.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haffrung Helleyes
You know, you and Mistwell can keep repeating that mantra as much as you want, but those of us here who aren't sock puppets aren't buying it.
Have a nice day.
I think I've made a good case. You are welcome to disagree with it, but insulting me for my ideas is ... lame.
Off to the pub. For real this time. Let me know who wins the internet.
__________________ ENworld OAF (Old-school Admirer of 4th edition)
This is almost certainly legal but it sure as hell isn't considerate or professional. 
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