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Before WotC started releasing its own PDFs for sale, pirated copies of books showed up within about a month of release.
About a month before, for the core 3
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After WotC started releasing its own PDFs for sale, pirated copies of books showed up within about a month of release.
According to someone earlier in the thread, within a few hours of the release of the book.
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I predict that after today, pirate copies of future titles will show up within about a month of release. Those copies will not contain watermarks that can lead to prosecution of the people who pirated them.
They'll be out within days I'd guess, but the quality of the PDF will be poorer. Probably will be a poor scan, and no OCR so no searching.
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I'd laugh about this, if it weren't so tragic for people who don't live in places where you can buy WotC books for anything like the North American price. I'm led to believe that a lot of ENWorlders around the world rely on PDFs just because they sell for relatively reasonable prices compared to hard copies.
I'm an Aussie, and I've never been seriously tempted to buy a PDF because even here it's still cheaper to buy a hard copy from Amazon than to buy the PDFs
For those of us with the means to do so, let's go to RPGNow or the ENWorld PDF store and support the publishers who are selling their PDFs by purchasing some of them.
If you don't want the small press to suffer from this, do something about it. Go spend a little money on something as a way of saying thank you for doing right by the customer.
That's a good suggestion. I'm kind of strapped for cash but I dropped by the Mythmere Games storefront over at Lulu earlier today, as well as the Goodman Games catalog over at RPGNow. I'll probably grab some Judge's Guild stuff tomorrow.
A guy on WotC forums had his laptop stolen today, he hadn't backed up, so now he has lost his paid for PDFs despite thinking he was backed up on RPGnow when he purchased them.
This is what I don't get.
He paid for the PDF and the backups. This is something he has already paid for. How can WotC take it away?
It's not like this is a physical product. It's an electronic product that he paid for, and that RPGnow was holding for him as a backup. How can WotC keep RPGnow from giving somebody something that he already owns?
__________________ Jeff Wilder, San Francisco Bay Area If your sig is longer than your posts, your sig is too
long. Nobody reads it, they just get annoyed by it. And if you bore me, you lose your soul to me. - Belly
Even if the retailers shouldn't have offered a promise they couldn't back up, WotC presumably knew, and didn't really care (and probably had it in the initial contract that they could do this at any time, similar to the language in the GSL).
I agree. Even if WotC had the legal right to pull the contract without notice (and that is not completely clear), it was at the very least indirectly complicit in endorsing the promise of RPGNow by not asking them to change it. If a company makes promises about delivering your products that you know they cannot deliver on, as a responsible large company you ask them to cease and desist so that your own reputation is not damaged by association - this is standard practice for responsible corporations.
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Even if the online retailers can be fairly blamed for promising something they couldn't actually control, that doesn't mean WotC gets indemnity for doing a pointless, boneheaded, scaredey-cat tactic like this offering the excuse of "piracy."
Yeah, you can be legitimately angry at the retailers. They shouldn't have promised something they couldn't deliver. But you can ALSO be legitimately angry at WotC, and, in fact, given the reasons for the decision and the ramifications and suddenness of it, and the fact that WotC were the ones who made the decision (with the retailers just abiding by the agreements they can), WotC is certainly to blame, and, in my mind, to blame for a much more massive and idiotic move.
Precisely my thoughts - thanks for saving me the need to type it up! I have given too much rep today already, otherwise you would clearly be a recipient.
Not only does this punish people who purchased their PDFs legally by making such legal channels no longer available, it also does nothing to significantly hinder piracy while also potentially harming other PDF publishers.
I've had this conversation before with clients looking to protect their IP, and this is the most frustrating part. Some manager or executive discovers online piracy and demands that something be done about it, refusing to accept that doing nothing is the best option.
Withdrawing their PDFs from sales won't mean an end to piracy. Their entire catalog was available on file sharing networks before this, and so long as there's people happy to cut the spine off a book and spend a day or two feeding the pages through a scanner (bonus marks for running it through OCR software), the piracy of their books will continue uabated.
The lawsuits are even more baffling, especially considering the disatrous experiences of the RIAA. They sued tens of thousands of people and all they got for their efforts was some very expensive egg on their faces. Suing eight people is a waste of time and money.
Note that this isn't about whether or not Wizards has the legal right to do what they're doing (they do, with the possible exception of those who didn't get a chance to download the books they paid for), or even the ethical right( they do, with the definate exception mentioned above). It's that this is another attempt to assuage the fears of suits who don't understand the issues, and mistakenly insist that doing something is always better than doing nothing.
Respectfully, it is RPGnow that owes you a refund.
RPGnow set up the conditions for the purchase, and your expectations (and mine). Their supplier had a change of mind, and RPGnow is unable to fulfill their commitment (5 copies).
If RPGnow didn't have the power to enforce the maintenance of 5 copies for download, they shouldn't have sold them to us.
You're right, in part, Filcher, in that WotC is well within their rights to decide not to sell their products in a e-format like PDF, it's their choice to enter or exit a particular market.
However, as with others, even myself, we're assuming facts not in evidence here, about what OneBookShelf/RPGNow/DriveThru and Wizards of the Coast's business relationship was and what both parties knew and/or agreed to. It is quite arguable, though, that by being aware of the copy download policy for PDFs via OBS' outlets, as well as Paizo, that their consent and acceptance of the policy was implied. Either it was implicitly accepted or else WotC was ignorant of their rights and either didn't know how to defend them or chose not to.
But, at this point, there is more assuming going on than knowing, on both sides of this, and until, if ever, we see the agreement between the two, all we're gonna see is the disagreement and objection over the course of action and regardless of who made the promise, thus who is liable for it, WotC is obviously making an Old Media mistake in a New Media world and is going to suffer for it.
Piracy is still going to happen like it did before WotC allowed PDF copies of their books, even now that they've retreated from PDFs. It ain't gonna stop a thing, except for the loyalty and patronage of some customers. Personally, I'm going with more New Media savvy folk, big and small, like Paizo, Rite Publishing, Wolfgang Baur, and so forth.
It's sad, really, because I've had a lot of positive things to say about 4e and the DDI, even run a 4e game on Sundays, but now I'm just irked. Hopefully WotC will come up with something that fixes things, before it gets a bit worse.
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....
In short, the film, based on Joel Bakan’s book “The Corporation: The Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power,” asserts that the corporation exhibits many of the traits found in people clinically defined as psychopaths.
Psychologist Dr. Robert Hare lists in the film psychopathic traits and ties them to the behavior of corporations:
callous unconcern for the feelings for others;
incapacity to maintain enduring relationships;
reckless disregard for the safety of others;
deceitfulness: repeated lying and conning others for profit;
incapacity to experience guilt;
failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behavior.
Interesting, isn't it?
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
I'm just glad I'm not publishing anything under 4e. After that, how a publisher can trust WotC to not yank the GSL from under their feet is just beyond me.
I'd like to weigh in here because a lot of this is pretty infuriating.
WotC is making a terrible decision here; worse, this will only unduly affect those who are already honest, paying customers and consumers of WotC products.
That said, the level of fire in this thread seems out of line, or at least misdirected.
I can understand calling this decision ill-begotten, unnecessarily punitive, myopic, archaic, irrelevant, and impotent.
It makes little sense to be angry at WotC for anything other than the short notice.
One might say that WotC fails to affect any real change with this decision, but are they wrong to make it? Should we really be angry at a publisher for acting in its interests, even if it does so in a blunderingly stupid way?
Some have commented that this will only increase theft of products, which might be true, but even if that is the practical effect of WotC's decision, surely they are not to blame for that? If you try to make it so that it is harder for a thief to steal from you, and your attempts are ineffective and inspire thieves to target you even more, you are not to blame in such a case.
We have assigned far too little blame to thieves who create conditions such that companies want to take action, even ill-advised action, in an attempt to thwart their activity. It does matter that people have watched it happen, all over; the fact that we think that it is not the same as watching someone take a new t.v. from a neighbour's house, saying nothing, does not mean that it isn't the same in all but magnitude. The implication in some of the responses here shows that some think it a good thing that a company suffer loss for attempting to deal with the thieves.
Nearly as frustrating is the championing of other game companies as virtuous paragons, rather than small, somewhat parasitic corporate entities. Failing to act uselessly is not an act of courage, even if it is much more clever, and opportunistic.
I get it. Some of you had downloads that you wanted to get that you can't now. That's bad. Boo WotC.
But for the rest, why the villifying?
WotC still offers, by far, the cheapest digital access to its products of any game company. I mean, it's hard to beat DDI; the character builder alone gives access to all current rules; a one month membership gives you access to a year's worth of material. For the cost of a single game book, you could buy a DDI membership four times a year and be very up to date with 4E, if you like it.
Even Paizo's generous policy of providing free pdfs of its products requires that you subscribe longer than that (or it did when I bought it).
I guess at the end of this rambling post, I'm depressed that our apathy and carelessness has allowed a situation to get bad enough that a company whose products I like feels forced to make a ridiculous, foolish, and alienating decision. I'm upset that I can't buy products I like electronically from a company I buy most of my gaming junk from. And I can't help but be upset that there isn't more rage directed at thieves who ruin things for the rest of us. What s.
I must say that I am no longer inclined to trust WotC motives and will probably no longer take their statements at face value, even though in the past I would definitely have given them the benefit of the doubt.
The GSL fiasco was the first to truly sow the seeds of doubt regarding WotC's motives in my mind - I saw the possibility that the delays are a deliberate liquidation of the 3PP market without actually having to come out and say that that's what WotC is doing, but this remained a lingering suspicion in the back of my mind, I was not yet ready to really assign them such a motive.
This time round, however, I find it entirely feasible that they have decided to pull these PDF sales so they can sell them through their own store or to move entirely to a service model (say flash books - only available as long as you are subscribed and connected online [say to DDI]) and merely thought that blaming it on piracy will get a smaller negative reaction than if they just pulled it for commercial reasons. Well, if this were the case, they were clearly wrong about the reaction...
Still, I just find the above feasible, I don't actually see into the 'minds' that make these decisions at WotC.
I'm just glad I'm not publishing anything under 4e. After that, how a publisher can trust WotC to not yank the GSL from under their feet is just beyond me.
This is a very good point. If I were a 3PP for 4E now, I would be quaking with fear and rapidly looking to redirect my business away from the GSL to the OGL or some other open system or a system of my own.
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Originally Posted by Darrin Drader
I have a suggestion.
WotC took their ball and went home. Let them.
For those of us with the means to do so, let's go to RPGNow or the ENWorld PDF store and support the publishers who are selling their PDFs by purchasing some of them.
If you don't want the small press to suffer from this, do something about it. Go spend a little money on something as a way of saying thank you for doing right by the customer.
This is Wise Advice.
I would suggest, that if we really want to get through to WoTC we should do the following:
In the next couple of days, go to RPGNow.com or Paizo and purchase a pdf. Even if it's just $1 or $2. Everyone has stuff on their wish list. Just pick one and give RPGNow and Paizo a hand.
Cancel your DDI subscriptions.
If you're an RPGA member, cease downloading any RPGA adventures, cancel any official RPGA events, and don't schedule any new events. (However, you probably won't want to cancel your RPGA membership just in case WotC sees reason. It was probably a bitch to get the membership in the first place. No need to put yourself through undue pain.)
If you are one of the Lucky ones going to GenCon in August, go and have fun. But, treat the WotC booth as if it's a leper colony. Spend money on Pathfinder and Trailblazer, and let WotC drive back to Washington with a truck full of unsold product.
Make sure you vote for everybody except WotC products when it comes time for the ENNies votes. Leave WotC wondering if anyone got the license of that truck that hit them.
If WotC insists on being this blind and stupid, and absolutely refusing to listen to their fan/customer base, then the only thing they'll listen to is hitting them in the wallet.
Light em' up boys!
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
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"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
This makes me very angry, and a lot more likely to get unauthorised free downloads. I was paying WoTC several £/go to get old Red Box D&D product off rpgnow. I had very little interest in current D&D, it's the OOP stuff I wanted. I feel kicked in the gut by WoTC.
I guess at the end of this rambling post, I'm depressed that our apathy and carelessness has allowed a situation to get bad enough that a company whose products I like feels forced to make a ridiculous, foolish, and alienating decision. I'm upset that I can't buy products I like electronically from a company I buy most of my gaming junk from. And I can't help but be upset that there isn't more rage directed at thieves who ruin things for the rest of us. What s.
While we're complaining about things we have absolutely no control over, I'd like to put in my grievances concerning the snow I got today. I plan to shake my fist angrily at the uncaring totality of nature. That'll show it.
__________________ Formerly known as Dr. Awkward
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Preventing piracy? Are you joking? The more difficult you make it to pirate, the more you drive up demand for pirated copies. Look at the Wolverine movie, for goodness sake! Look at Ain't It Cool news! Look at Lost spoilers! People who post material online do it for the prestige in their very small community. Making it more difficult just whets pirate appetites. And, with this new-fangled thing they call the interwebs, all it takes is for one person to succeed.
The way to fight piracy is to increase supply of legitimate, convenient, affordable and quality products so as to drive down demand for low-quality, low-feature scans.
And, yes, this is TSR all over again.
Excellent post. This is a completely retarded move by WotC, as anyone with a little bit of experience in those matters can attest to.
WotC didn't sell you the promise of 5 PDFs. RPGnow did.
I'm not talking about 5 pdf downloads. Some people are angry about that, yes, but you're buidling a giant strawman by focusing on that one complaint to the exclusion of all others. That is not the only reason people are angry and, in fact, I didn't even mention it in the post that you responded to. Say, you're building a strawman here, too, eh?
Let me recap my previous post that has absolutely nothing to do with remaining downloads at RPGNow or any other vendor.
As I note above, many people are angry because WotC pulled their entire PDF catalog from circulation everywhere, indefinitely, without giving any notice whatsoever to consumers. In this case, people are angry because they no longer have any venue at all through which to purchase affordable, legal, electronic copies of WotC products.
Many people are angry because they did have such a venue until about six hours ago — and then *poof* it disappeared with absolutely no warning at all. Why? Because some people distributed PDFs illegally. So, rather than do something to discourage those people from committing crimes, WotC shuts down all legal channels of availability and does nothing to significantly hinder illegal channels of distribution. Well played!
Further, as I previously noted, many people are angry because WotC has effectively yanked their endorsement of PDF publishing as whole, potentially screwing a lot of other publishers in that section of the industry without any warning at all. Again, if I quit a 9 to 5 job, it's basic courtesy for me to give at least two weeks notice — but WotC gets to walk out on a huge business arrangement with only a few hours of notice? Bull.
WotC has acted with callous disregard toward both law abiding fans and toward other publishers. Sure, they have every right to protect their own interests, but the way this was handled showed that they care not one whit for anybody else, be they fans or publishers.
None of this has anything at all to do with remaining downloads at RPGNow or any other vendor.
If WotC insists on being this blind and stupid, and absolutely refusing to listen to their fan/customer base, then the only thing they'll listen to is hitting them in the wallet.
Light em' up boys!
It's unfortunate they made so much off of Paizo's sales tonight. But the way they run things over at WOTC, they will probably use tonight's sales figures as a way to predict to the higher-ups how much money they will make with PDF sales on DDI. Leading to more bad sales projections, more layoffs, more boneheaded moves like the one tonight, Lather-Rinse-Repeat.
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
This is Wise Advice.
I would suggest, that if we really want to get through to WoTC we should do the following:
In the next couple of days, go to RPGNow.com or Paizo and purchase a pdf. Even if it's just $1 or $2. Everyone has stuff on their wish list. Just pick one and give RPGNow and Paizo a hand.
Cancel your DDI subscriptions.
If you're an RPGA member, cease downloading any RPGA adventures, cancel any official RPGA events, and don't schedule any new events. (However, you probably won't want to cancel your RPGA membership just in case WotC sees reason. It was probably a bitch to get the membership in the first place. No need to put yourself through undue pain.)
If you are one of the Lucky ones going to GenCon in August, go and have fun. But, treat the WotC booth as if it's a leper colony. Spend money on Pathfinder and Trailblazer, and let WotC drive back to Washington with a truck full of unsold product.
Make sure you vote for everybody except WotC products when it comes time for the ENNies votes. Leave WotC wondering if anyone got the license of that truck that hit them.
If WotC insists on being this blind and stupid, and absolutely refusing to listen to their fan/customer base, then the only thing they'll listen to is hitting them in the wallet.
Light em' up boys!
Easy for you (and the others who propagate this idea), since you do not even play the game WotC makes. Suggesting that we (those of us who actually play it) play and buy products for a game we enjoy less, out of spite against WotC and 4e, is frankly ridiculous. We are not 5 year old.
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