General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Arguably you have the right to the product purchased, along with the number of downloads that are made available to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mach1.9pants
Woh, that is not good.
I haven't got any as yet but will do soon when my eReader arrives. How can they stop you getting copies of PDFs you have already purchased????????
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdrakeh
If this does come to pass, somebody up in Seattle needs to credit me for my past purchases of WotC product that still have downloads remaining. Changing an agreement after somebody purchases things might be legal but it's still a load of horse pucky.
Disclaimer: this is based on my understanding of sales in general and statements in this thread, not any specific knowledge. This isn't legal advice, etc, etc, etc.
Your contract is probably with RPGNOW, not WotC. WotC probably isn't changing anything about your contract because they can't alter a contract to which they're not a party. Most likely, RPGNOW promised you something that, in the event of a cancelation of their separate contract with WotC, they cannot honor. They probably shouldn't have done that.
Uhm... I just checked out Drivethru and RPGNow, and I can buy WOTC products, still.
When does this go into effect?
(I got as far as checkout, I didn't actually try to buy anything, but if you can add them to your cart, I don't see why you can't buy...)
Yeah, I tried that too. . . I didn't want to go any further, for fear that I'd be billed for stuff I couldn't actually download. I suspect that turning off the shopping cart for 900+ items may take a little time if the webmaster is out of the office. If this is related to the press release I cited above, they (OBS) may have just received the notice this afternoon.
I bet you're right, but this move will have no effect. In fact, I bet it increases the amount of books that are pirated; harder to feel bad about downloading a book via bittorrent if their is no way to buy it.
Exactly. Those that download pirated stuff on the internet are not "customers" anyways. Even if they have to buy the book from Borders, take it to work, Xerox the entire thing 5 times (once for themselves and once for every player) and then return the book, they're not going ot pay a red cent for it. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if someone bought a scanner from Best Buy, scanned the damn thing in, and then returned the scanner and book.
But either way, those are not "lost sales" since they never had any intention to buy them in the first place. Lost sales include pissing off your customers by invalidating their previously bought legal downloads. Lost customers have no other outlit but pirated copies. If someone is pirating, shut down an account, not the entire legal avenue system.
*shakes head, rolls eyes*
__________________
Jon Brazer Enterprises- Bringing You the Future
Players, put faith in your Pathfinder character with Book of the Faithful: Power of Prayer available at DriveThruRPG.com.
Uniquely watermarked PDFs is the way WotC really, really needs to go with this. That way, if they wanted to identify a leaked PDF they'd know who it is.
There are a lot of watermarks out there that bury themselves within artwork and borders that are entirely undiscernable to the naked eye.
Most likely, RPGNOW promised you something that, in the event of a cancelation of their separate contract with WotC, they cannot honor. They probably shouldn't have done that.
I'm aware of this and agree with you to some extent but the fact that rolls downhill doesn't make WotC's decision to cancel their contract and stipulate to RPGNow that a few thousand customers be left out in the cold any easier to swallow. . .
. . . provided, of course, that the above is what actually happened. As I mention previously, it's possible that the agreement was terminated due to RPGNow refusing to sign a new distribution agreement (or some other situation thus far obscured).
All I know for certain is that RPGNow got out in front of this by providing at least some information, while WotC has been very quiet. That doesn't build any confidence.
Uniquely watermarked PDFs is the way WotC really, really needs to go with this. That way, if they wanted to identify a leaked PDF they'd know who it is.
There are a lot of watermarks out there that bury themselves within artwork and borders that are entirely undiscernable to the naked eye.
Sounds good in theory, but I don't think it will work in practice.
1. If it's an obnoxious watermark, like a across a whole page, people won't like it and it will sell less.
2. If it's a little thing in the corner, pirates will just cover it up in acrobat, and reexport it.
3. If it's some kind of secret, hidden mark (if thats even possible) privacy advocates will throw a hissy. This would probably happen in any event, if the watermark somehow identified you personally.
Yeah, I tried that too. . . I didn't want to go any further, for fear that I'd be billed for stuff I couldn't actually download. I suspect that turning off the shopping cart for 900+ items may take a little time if the webmaster is out of the office. If this is related to the press release I cited above, they (OBS) may have just received the notice this afternoon.
Does OBS have a brick and morter shop? Seems like you need this in order to sign their internet policy.
Seems like if they don't WoTC is either planning to:
1. Sell the pdfs themself. They have the tech to do this, doesn't seem too hard to implement. (Although more work on their end.)
Based on the internet sales policy and retailer rewards stuff this now seem unlikely.
2. Offer the B&M shops that have websites the ability to sell the PDFs.
Perhaps they saw that the pdf sales going exclusively through OBS were working in opposiion to their desire to help the brick and morter stores, and want to do soemthing to help them, rather then making Drivethru a monopoly?
If they let the brick and morter stores sell the pdfs, they help foster the ability of the B&M stores to stay relevent and continue to offer what they offer to the comunity.
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (TDY in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
Posts: 1,546
I'm willing to give WoTC the benefit of the doubt until they release a statement about what's really happening and why. I'll avoid making any conjecture or ascribing any motives until I hear what they have to say.
But, I do have to say that whatever is happening, this IS yet another PR screwup by WoTC. Have they not learned anything in the last year? If a company wants to avoid alienating customers, and avoid all the trouble and conspiracy theories and WoTC bashing that inevitably follows, they have to get the word out FIRST. This is PR 101 guys. I don't understand how they can continually make this same mistake, over and over again, and not learn from it.
Bottom line, this should have been a release from WoTC first, explaining what they were doing and why, BEFORE customers heard it from RPGNow and BEFORE customers lost access to their downloads. Their advertising machine has been running on all cylinders since the anouncement of 4E. Their R&D has been kicking ass from the start (I don't prefer 4E myself, but I can't deny that they have made a hell of a game). They however did, initially, seriously screw up their digital initiative. But, if they have done anything worse, it's been their PR. Their Public Relations have been nothing but amateur hour from the moment 4E was released.
800 lb. Gorrila or not, they can't continue to treat their customer/fan base this way and not expect repercussions.
I'm not saying this because I want WoTC to fail. On the contrary, I want them to still be around, and still making D&D (in whatever edition) 40 or 50 years from now. But if they don't start getting their house in order when it comes to PR, I don't see how they'll be able to maintain a loyal customer/fan base for that long.
I think some of the posters here are probably correct in that, at least in the short run, this action will probably cause an increase in piracy. The sad part is, it didn't have to happen. Communicate to your customer/fan base BEFORE you take such actions, and you will seriously mitigate the amount of fallout to only the standard amount that happens with any change. Come on WoTC, this should be a no-brainer!
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
Paizo still seem to be selling wotc pdfs here, though only the old TSR ones, and until someone actually confirms a purchase over at paizo, we don't know if you can complete checkout.
It's a shame to have lost those from 3ed and 4ed, though WotC had (shamefully IMO) already removed the 3ed core books from sale with the release of 4ed. Hopefully they'll return.
Lost sales include pissing off your customers by invalidating their previously bought legal downloads.
But, that's not what is happening here. There nothing "invalidated" about your previously bought stuff. You paid for some data, and got that data, and still have that data. They aren't taking it back. Keep backups like you ought to, and you should have no problems.
Invalidating your contract with RPGNow for re-downloads is another issue. However, it seems like RPGNow didn't actually have the right to guarantee such access to begin with. You want to hold WotC responsible for agreements they were not party to? You think that's reasonable?
All I know for certain is that RPGNow got out in front of this by providing at least some information, while WotC has been very quiet. That doesn't build any confidence.
This more than anything else is what fascinates me about the situation. Ok, maybe WotC did the only thing it could do; maybe it took the best option it had; maybe it has something good in store eventually. But no communication, no announcement, no explanation, no warning, no indication that anything whatsoever is happening at all!
. . . provided, of course, that the above is what actually happened. As I mention previously, it's possible that the agreement was terminated due to RPGNow refusing to sign a new distribution agreement (or some other situation thus far obscured).
This. It seems way too coincidental that this is occurring on the day WotC's new Internet Sales Policy goes into effect. I would contact RPGNow.com directly.
Uhm... I just checked out Drivethru and RPGNow, and I can buy WOTC products, still.
When does this go into effect?
(I got as far as checkout, I didn't actually try to buy anything, but if you can add them to your cart, I don't see why you can't buy...)
Well, just to test, I tried to re-download a classic product, and got a "wizards has suspended all sales" message.
Yet all products still seem available for sale, and the ones in my wishlist are still there.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
