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Yes, they do, actually. Or, at the very least, Minion Development/RPGNow did prior to the merger with DriveThru to become OBS. I assume that it is still part of the company.
That said, as I mention earlier, this sounds far more like the GW push to 'help' brick and mortar stores by forcing Internet retailers to adhere to slavish, often absurd, standards in order to carry GW stock at all.
Then, after they effectively locked out most online distributors, they turned their sights on those brick and mortar stores they were previously trying to 'help' by forcing them to adhere to the same (or similar) standards.
That's what this sounds like. It may be something entirely different but, again, all we really know is what OBS has publically stated.
I don't know too many FLGS owners or webmasters who wouldn't love to spend a few hours alone in a locked room with a GW sales rep and a blow torch. I think that they (GW sales reps) must be some of the most reviled people in gaming.
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Perhaps they saw that the pdf sales going exclusively through OBS were working in opposiion to their desire to help the brick and morter stores, and want to do soemthing to help them, rather then making Drivethru a monopoly?
Except that they were not going exclusively through OBS — they were (and apparently are) still going through Paizo. And there are other PDF distributors that they could go through, to boot.
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If they let the brick and morter stores sell the pdfs, they help foster the ability of the B&M stores to stay relevent and continue to offer what they offer to the comunity.
If this action was forced by WotC as OBS seems to suggest, I think it's far more likely that they're trying to 'help' brick and mortar stores by crippling online vendors, a plan which is both far cheaper and easier to implement (and, again, which GW has proved works to the manufacturer's advantage with regard to IP control).
Again, I think it would be great if WotC let their customers know what the hell was going on but I think that the ideal of transparency in operations over there has pretty much stalled out.
To his credit, Rouse tells us what he can, when he can, but I get the impression that what he is allowed to say has become more and more limited in recent months. Giving a few thousand customers the bum's rush with no word from the publisher?
Paizo still seem to be selling wotc pdfs here, though only the old TSR ones, and until someone actually confirms a purchase over at paizo, we don't know if you can complete checkout.
Ok boys and girls, I took the chance on your behalf and purchased a Birthright title (which was in my RPGNow wishlist) from Paizo, and it downloaded just fine. If there is something you desperately want, you may want to get it now.
__________________ "No, no thats not how you uphold the law...You gotta get 'em in the head, they go down quicker." -Officer Barbrady
Hmmm... by my (admittedly brief due to dinner being on the table) reading of the internet retailer agreement, the clauses seem to be more targeted at some stuff with MTG marketing.
If true, all the D&D/pdf stuff should blow over.
Edit: Hrm. Looking again, it sounds like you must have a brick & mortar location. The economics of that might not work out for some current online retailers.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
Exactly. Those that download pirated stuff on the internet are not "customers" anyways. Even if they have to buy the book from Borders, take it to work, Xerox the entire thing 5 times (once for themselves and once for every player) and then return the book, they're not going ot pay a red cent for it.
Thing is, if you make it harder to get illegal copies of a pdf on the net, more people are likely to legitimately buy them.
Its the old expression, "why buy the cow when I can get the milk for free". Well the flip side works as well, "If I like milk, and can't get the milk for free, maybe I'll buy a cow".
People get illegal pdfs because its free and easy to do. If the easy to do is taken out, then that's more incentive to just cough up some cash and get the pdf legally.
But, that's not what is happening here. There nothing "invalidated" about your previously bought stuff. You paid for some data, and got that data, and still have that data. They aren't taking it back. Keep backups like you ought to, and you should have no problems.
Invalidating your contract with RPGNow for re-downloads is another issue. However, it seems like RPGNow didn't actually have the right to guarantee such access to begin with. You want to hold WotC responsible for agreements they were not party to? You think that's reasonable?
We don't know if WotC negotiated a contract allowing them to pull the availability of files for redownload in contradiction of the terms that RPGNOW advertises it sells pdfs on. We do know their authorized seller of pdfs said we could redownload the WotC products and now according to the statement WotC has told them not to allow that to happen after sales have been made.
We don't know if RPGNow made claims it was not authorized to make or if WotC ordered something it does not have the legal authority to order. Even if WotC has legal authority to pull back their download sources, it is their action that takes away stuff we paid for.
You expect consumers to give WotC the benefit of the doubt and to turn the other cheek.
We paid for data and access to data. We now just have the data we downloaded but not the access to store backups that we paid for. We do not know enough to say if they are legally entitled to take away access to the store backups from their consumers. They might be. This would not entitle them to say it is not their actions that are responsible for the consumers loss or to avoid the ire their actions cause.
That said, as I mention earlier, this sounds far more like the GW push to 'help' brick and mortar stores by forcing Internet retailers to adhere to slavish, often absurd, standards in order to carry GW stock at all.
Do you have any reason to think this?
I'm not saying that you're wrong, because I don't know what's going on. But do you have any particular reason for thinking this particular scenario is occuring?
I bet you're right, but this move will have no effect. In fact, I bet it increases the amount of books that are pirated; harder to feel bad about downloading a book via bittorrent if their is no way to buy it.
Uhm... I just checked out Drivethru and RPGNow, and I can buy WOTC products, still.
When does this go into effect?
(I got as far as checkout, I didn't actually try to buy anything, but if you can add them to your cart, I don't see why you can't buy...)
I tried to re-download a previously purchased WotC book and you don't see anything till you try to download.
The Download window repeats what is said on the main page.
I don't understand their thinking with pdf products.
They never use them to support their own products.
The GSL forces 3rd party publishers to remove their old ones making torrents the ONLY version available.
And now even if they start selling them themselves, many people won't trust them since they just forced RPGNow! to break their contract with their customers.
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Originally Posted by Stalker0
Thing is, if you make it harder to get illegal copies of a pdf on the net, more people are likely to legitimately buy them.
Its the old expression, "why buy the cow when I can get the milk for free". Well the flip side works as well, "If I like milk, and can't get the milk for free, maybe I'll buy a cow".
People get illegal pdfs because its free and easy to do. If the easy to do is taken out, then that's more incentive to just cough up some cash and get the pdf legally.
I believe they can make it harder for sites to offer illegal downloads, but to actually make it harder for people to find and download? In the end, I'd highly doubt it. Trying to stop pirating in it's entirety is probably an exercise akin to the Little Dutch Boy with his finger in the dike.
But, I do ascribe to the idea that people essentially want to do the right thing (for the most part). If you provide a product at a reasonable price, and then pro-actively and accurately communicate with your customers, I believe that most people will buy a legitimate copy rather than pirate.
Becuase of their PR ineptness, I also believe that the majority of WoTC's problems on this front are self-inflicted.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
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Yes, they do, actually. Or, at the very least, Minion Development/RPGNow did prior to the merger with DriveThru to become OBS. I assume that it is still part of the company.
That said, as I mention earlier, this sounds far more like the GW push to 'help' brick and mortar stores by forcing Internet retailers to adhere to slavish, often absurd, standards in order to carry GW stock at all.
Then, after they effectively locked out most online distributors, they turned their sights on those brick and mortar stores they were previously trying to 'help' by forcing them to adhere to the same (or similar) standards.
Uhh... did you read their authorized online seller stuff? There aren't any slavish or absurd standards aside from pretty much always maintaining your brick and morter store.
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Except that they were not going exclusively through OBS — they were (and apparently are) still going through Paizo. And there are other PDF distributors that they could go through, to boot.
Yeah but the current edition stuff is well was drivethru exclusive.
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I think it's far more likely that they're trying to 'help' brick and mortar stores by crippling online vendors, a plan which is both far cheaper and easier to implement (and, again, which GW has proved works to the manufacturer's advantage with regard to IP control).
They already had that stuff in place before, (about Brick and Morter) just through the distributor. Did you read any of the retailer rewards stuff linked to the press release?
You expect consumers to give WotC the benefit of the doubt and to turn the other cheek.
You're giving RPGNow the benefit of the doubt. In a situation where its almost guaranteed that they knew, when they promised you future downloads, that they couldn't actually guarantee that promise.
Why the hard line:
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We do not know enough to say if they are legally entitled to take away access to the store backups from their consumers. They might be. This would not entitle them to say it is not their actions that are responsible for the consumers loss or to avoid the ire their actions cause.
for one company but not the other? Particularly when only one of the companies has made promises to you?
That's seriously not cool. If I'd bought any WotC PDFs from RPGNow, I'd be making a huge stink right now.
One of the main reasons I like buying from them is that you can download your PDFs later. RPGNow should have required that in any contract before allowing WotC to sell on their store, so either RPGNow was negligent on that requirement or WotC broke a contract. Either way, someone ed up, and if I was one of the consumers who had purchased any of their stuff I'd be demanding my money back.
Well, as I mentioned earlier, I don't know with any degree of certainty that this is what it happening. In a nutshell, back in the day, GW initially cut wholesalers and web-based distributors out of the commerce loop as part of a "direct to retailer" program promoted as an effort to help brick and mortar stores. This sounds like what the new web distribution policy may be aimed at doing based on familiar language in the WotC press release and the RPGNow blurb.
I bet you're right, but this move will have no effect. In fact, I bet it increases the amount of books that are pirated; harder to feel bad about downloading a book via bittorrent if their is no way to buy it.
Thing is, if you make it harder to get illegal copies of a pdf on the net, more people are likely to legitimately buy them.
Its the old expression, "why buy the cow when I can get the milk for free". Well the flip side works as well, "If I like milk, and can't get the milk for free, maybe I'll buy a cow".
People get illegal pdfs because its free and easy to do. If the easy to do is taken out, then that's more incentive to just cough up some cash and get the pdf legally.
Huh?
This does not make it harder to get illegal copies.
At least for right now this only makes it harder to get legal copies.
For 3e and 4e stuff illegal copies are the only pdfs currently available.
For older edition stuff this cuts the number of sources of legally obtaining pdfs of them by half.
RPGNow should have required that in any contract before allowing WotC to sell on their store, so either RPGNow was negligent on that requirement or WotC broke a contract.
Its unlikely that WotC "broke a contract."
If Company A licenses something to Company B, and that license has an uncancellable term of lets say 5 years, and two years in A calls up B and says "your license is over, stop now," there's no reason for B to listen.
The most coercive thing I can think of for WotC to have done is to have given an uncancellable contract, but then to come to RPGNow and say, "We know we can't make you cancel that earlier contract, but we have a new, different contract that will be very lucrative for you, and we will only give it to you if you agree to modify and cancel the earlier contract." You know, offer something the other side will hopefully think is better, and require them to give up one agreement to get the other.
I don't have any reason to think that's happened, though. The most likely scenario is an at will agreement terminatable at any time with notice, notice having been given, and RPGNow realizing it can't uphold promises made to customers.
Someone who's bought things from RPGNow needs to check their fine print and see if they disclaimed this sort of occurrence.
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