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You know Joe, I'd thought the same thing. But posting something like that here at Enworld is dangerous in that the pro-4E crowd will now attack you for speculating about the sales of 4E. I mean as long as you speculate that the sales arent doing well. If you were saying that the sales are brisk and awesome then that seems to be OK here.
Be aware: anyone who tries to turn this into an edition war will get to go visit other sites for a while. We'll have none of that, and we'll have no personal attacks against the people who work at WotC.
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By sales being less than projected, don't get me wrong. They can be through the roof. But if they are less than some spreadsheet said they had to be, based on factors not at all related to reality, heads will roll.
Well, the core book sales and PHB2 sales seemed pretty good, considering the reprint rates and amazon ranks (and problems).
However, I think it's very possible that they had less than expected PDF sales - meaning their e-department isn't reporting enough, hence the blame on piracy. That would also explain why they pulled the old edition products as well, because they're part of the same department.
Since losses due to pirating are impossible to prove, (and in fact pirating may arguably lead to more sales in the long run,) its also impossible to disprove.
Could cutting off the online sale of pdfs be an attempt to quantify / prove their damages? -- "Look m'lord, these pirates forced the plaintiff to stop doing business with these fine online merchants, which is costing us 300k a month in business?" -- "M'lord it is also my submission that the plaintiff lost the good will of many customers due to the defendants piracy, forcing them to shut down online sales"
Or are the damages all statutory down in the states?
What I find most annoying about this is that the honest people are being punished, and it's not going to slow down the dishonest people one bit.
Yep, first thing I thought of, too. Reminds me of some other things we can't discuss here because it's not about business policy. But the point is, it's silly to think this will help.
I'm positive that the staff at WotC are geeky enough to realise the futility and backlash of such a gesture.
Looks like I'm 99.9% + .1% right.
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Posted by WoTC_Trevor:
Hey all. I wanted to step in and add shine a mote of light on the subject.
Unfortunately, due to recent findings of illegal copying and online distribution (piracy) of our products, Wizards of the Coast has decided to cease the sales of online PDFs. We are exploring other options for digitial distribution of our content and as soon as we have any more information I'll get it to you.
Eh... I work in a corporate environment, and I think the only part that makes sense is it's a dumb idea. (Not yours the idea of taking the pdfs off.)
More then likely it isn't lack of sales altogether, but instead:
Lack of sales of the official pdfs + an increase in pirating.
It's pobably part of soemthing that's been tracked since day 1. Maybe someone's quarterly report finally showed the pirate to official pdf ratio was in the cancel now range...
What it doesn't account for is that it's new, so obviously more people will be pirating it. (especialy if it is popular.)
But can they track piracy? Is this possible for them?
It just hit me what this dumbass decision is all about. Sales are less than projected for 4e and DDI and a scapegoat is needed. Think about it. It makes no sense otherwise.
Plausible? Sure. But still entirely speculative.
"No sense otherwise?" Um... that's a bit much. Really, nobody speaking on this has enough data to claim they know what makes sense, and what doesn't.
I wonder if Wizards might try something with a non-intrusive form of DRM.
One positive thing they might do (and I'd encourage) is consider releasing the products on something like Steam or iTunes. That seems pretty effective in stoping piracy of their games, supports authentication, etc.
Of course, does Steam do e-books? I know iTunes does...
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Lending more proof to my theory that this is driven by not meeting corporate goals...
Hasbro to Webcast 2009 First Quarter Earnings Conference Call PAWTUCKET, R.I.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Mar. 27, 2009-- Hasbro, Inc. (NYSE:HAS) today announced that it will webcast its first quarter results via the Internet. The webcast will take place on Monday April 20, 2009 at 8:30 a.m. Eastern Time, following the release of Hasbro's financial results.
This is the sort of thing that you do a week or two before a quarterly meeting so that you boss can tell his boss and so on all the way up the ladder that yes, there is a problem meeting revenue goals, but look what we are doing to address it. I've seen this scenario too many times in my corporate past life...
__________________ ~Joe
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Not torrents specifically, but I did report some specific individuals and sites, yeah (as did several other ENWorlders, I'm sure). I'll be honest — I wish I hadn't done that now. The only change that I've seen as a result of my trying to do the next right thing in this instance has been the shuttering of the sole affordable, legal, point of access to old, out of print, TSR products.
I wonder if Wizards might try something with a non-intrusive form of DRM.
One positive thing they might do (and I'd encourage) is consider releasing the products on something like Steam or iTunes. That seems pretty effective in stoping piracy of their games, supports authentication, etc.
Of course, does Steam do e-books? I know iTunes does...
AFAIK Steam doesn't; I have 70 odd games on my Steam account and haven't seen any non game stuff.
However I am rather annoyed, I just pre-ordered a Foxit eSlick eReader which ONLY does PDFs. Now this is mainly for my degree stuff but the added bonus of DnD PDFs made a big influence on my purchasing decision. If I can't get all the books on PDF now I am going to be really p'd off!
I wonder if Wizards might try something with a non-intrusive form of DRM.
DRM just doesn't work. Someone has to pay to develop it (or license it from someone) and then it gets hacked pretty much straight away. All it does is annoy the paying customer by preventing backups and copies etc making it again more likely people will pirate or avoid the product. The music industry has pretty much moved away from DRM now. One of the biggest profile stories of last year in the gaming industry was the release of Spore which had DRM built in. People avoided it en mass and it was hacked and uploaded in one day
All wizards have to do is decide if they make more or less cash by accepting pirates and selling pdfs - or not at all. The only real difference is that it takes a few days for someone to be bothered to scan the entire book, which is what happened in the 3e days. I doubt they are going to make any more sales because of that delay
Personally I find pdfs far more useful than paper books so I'm pretty annoyed by this.
__________________ PRISM
Last edited by Prism; 7th April 2009 at 03:26 AM..
The two biggest problems with the Internet revolution were the following: companies focused more on market share rather than how they got paid, which gave an expectation, and people like Stallman, Lessig, etc., started a memeplex that made people think that created content was worthless and should be gratis for people to use. This has created a sort of entitlement culture in the world, as well as enforcing a somewhat naive belief that people should create "just for the art", and that any big corporation that produces content is evil, IP laws are "stupid", etc.
I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll limit myself to this observation for other readers here. As a media studies professor who teaches both sides of the file sharing issue, I can say that this poster's description of Stallman and Lessig's various arguments is not undisputed nor is their stance for a freer marketplace of ideas represented in full enough detail for an informative debate.
Edit: Nor, for that matter, is it particularly relevant to a discussion of WotC's decision for us to have an argument about what two individuals' positions are on copyright or copyleft approaches. Those interested in learning about other options than copyright should go here: Licenses - Creative Commons
__________________ All role playing advice is given without knowledge of you and your group. Only you and your group knows what is fun for you. What you are doing is not badwrongfun. My advice is offered based on what I think might be fun for you to try.
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Last edited by roguerouge; 7th April 2009 at 03:26 AM..
What really pisses me off are the "classic" products that are being pulled.
I'm a big fan of a lot of the old 2e settings, and have been slowly accumulating PDF of them on Paizo's store. WotC doesn't sell these in hard copy, and hasn't in a very long time.
The only options are "buy the PDF" or "pirate the PDF," and now they're taking the former away...
UNLESS, of course, they make them all available on the WotC website for purchase. If WotC is opening their own .pdf store, then it makes sense.
(Although the WotC rep who popped in earlier said the reason for it was piracy, so I guess this isn't it.)
Yeah, I was worried about this happening. I was online and awake just after midnight the night before the PHB2 was going to come out. I scanned a pirate site and saw that there was a copy of the PHB2 in PDF format 30 minutes after midnight on the release date. I had already had my copy for being a volunteer for WOTC, so I was curious and downloaded it.
It had a watermark it. It was purchased online and distributed the night before most people could buy it. I check these sites on a regular basis, so I really didn't expect to see it there. Normally it takes a good week or two for someone to buy the book who feels the need to scan it and put it online.
I've noticed 4e books have been coming out a lot quicker than the 3e books did. This one came out especially early, but previous books were out within a week of the release date. 3e books took up to 2 months to appear online.
I'm not sure if pirates just feel there is more demand for it, it whether someone in a pirate group took a liking to 4e or whether it was due to the ease of getting PDF copies....but whatever the reason, they've been appearing quicker. I think that the PHB2 appearing on The Pirate Bay 30 minutes into the day, probably sealed this, though.
I'm actually surprised, however. The person who uploaded it Pirate Bay had their name stamped in the book as a watermark. You'd figure they could catch him. Maybe it was exactly the fact that they couldn't catch him that lead to this.
__________________ Majoru Oakheart
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First of all, did any of the honest people do anything to stop piracy? Did you report any torrents to WoTC? Did you try to encourage people not to do it. Did you explain to your friends about this? I'm sure some did, but I'm sure others didn't and even encouraged piracy, while others turned a blind eye. And those that will now "turn to piracy" to spite WoTC don't really have, IMO, a very good grip on ethics or morality.
Ethics and morality don't enter into it. It's economics, which is neither ethical or moral.
I mean, I live in New York City. Should I really go send off an e-mail to Coach to let them know, hey, someone is making knock-offs of your stuff RIGHT DOWN ON CANAL STREET?!
The idea that you can stop piracy -- or even theivery -- is absurd on the face of it. Fighting a war on piracy is like fighting a war on drugs or like prohibition -- nobody really wins.
Piracy is going to happen. You can't stop it. You can mitigate it. One of the ways you mitigate it is by providing a legal alternative, especially one that is more convenient than the illegal one. The DDI and selling PDFs online were ALREADY things that were stopping it.
This smacks to me of "sacrificial lamb." It's something that WotC can get rid off without hurting a major market (I doubt PDF sales were very big), while saying "See, Bean Counters! We've been doing our part to stop the bad guys!"
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Secondly, this does deter pirates somewhat. The WoTC benefit from printer proofs and Acrobat features. Somebody would have to scan the physical book and it's likely to be an inferior copy.
If you're using a quality argument, I don't believe you truly understand what online piracy really is. No one refuses to download an illegal, free copy of something that they want just because it might be of, well, "bootleg" quality.
People were downloading PDF's of 1e material in 2001. People are currently downloading re-re-recordings of Dead Kennedys concerts that were originally on shady audio from the '80s. Minor quality loss won't deter anything.
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And thirdly--I fully suspect ISPs and other will start being able to detect piracy. Let's see where we are 10 years from now.
There are massive problems with it on an ISP level. For one, they can't shut down file sharing programs in general, because there are legal uses for them (it's the VHS/Betamax argument, in a nutshell). For two, the level of invasion of privacy that would enable an ISP to be able to see and legally report on what I'm doing on my computer would enter an Orwellian minefield of Big Brother supervision that any "free citizen" would balk at.
That ain't happenin' any time soon, and if it does, we'll have much bigger problems than pirated D&D books on our hands.
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As annoying and disappointing this is, I have a feeling that you'll be seeing more of this occuring. Today, the AP announced they are taking steps to prevent their stories from being used without compensation--in part to protect their newspaper subscribers.
For every news story the AP shuts down, 300 people twitter what's going on at 140 characters or less. The AP, like WotC, is shooting itself in the foot.
Quote:
The two biggest problems with the Internet revolution were the following: companies focused more on market share rather than how they got paid, which gave an expectation, and people like Stallman, Lessig, etc., started a memeplex that made people think that created content was worthless and should be gratis for people to use. This has created a sort of entitlement culture in the world, as well as enforcing a somewhat naive belief that people should create "just for the art", and that any big corporation that produces content is evil, IP laws are "stupid", etc.
Piracy is to IP law as the Gutenberg Bible was to Christianity. New copying technologies invariably disrupt old ways of controlling information. But that's not really here or there. The ultimate point is that you can't stop piracy, especially not by cutting off a legal avenue of access.
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I suspect the economic downturn is going to cause some harsh realities, and you can expect more companies making these unpopular decisions.
The companies that thrive and succeed during the downturn will be the ones who innovate and grow new ways of doing things, rather than those that turtle up in their little shells.
It's when the dinosaurs fall that mammals can thrive, after all.
But can they track piracy? Is this possible for them?
Just this week, they got an estimate of how many copies of the Wolverine early-cut got downloaded. I would expect they can do the same for PDFs - the number is just smaller.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WotC_Trevor
Hey all. I wanted to step in and shine a mote of light on the subject. First off, this cesation of PDF sales has absolutely nothing to do with the Internet Sales Policy. I know it's the 6th of April and I can definitely see how the two would appear linked, but the truth is, this is a completely seperate matter.
Unfortunately, due to recent findings of illegal copying and online distribution (piracy) of our products, Wizards of the Coast has decided to cease the sales of online PDFs. We are exploring other options for digitial distribution of our content and as soon as we have any more information I'll get it to you.
You have got to be Kidding Me!
Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater!
What's next, are you guys going to pull all Dungeon and Dragon Magazine .pdf's also? Because those are just as easy to distribute online as any .pdf's from RPGNow and Paizo.
"We are exploring other options for digitial distribution of our content..."
Do you honestly expect anyone here to believe we will EVER see .pdf's provided in a timely manner? If Ever? Do you honestly expect anyone here to believe WotC will ever make this a priority? Do you even have enough people left working there after all of the layoffs to be able to explore other options?
Before 4E was released we were promised .pdf's at a nominal fee if one bought a hard copy. WoTC wasn't able to pull that off, and instead sold 4E .pdf's at near full price (actually full price since buying all three core books in .pdf cost more than what I paid for the core book collection at 4E's release). How do you honestly expect us to believe your explorations will bear fruit?
And your complete screw-up of the PR on this - this is the last damn straw.
We, your customers, have put up with being belittled for wanting an Adventure Path synopsis for Scales of War. And then had to be content with the insulting scraps we were provided.
We, your customers, had to e-mail and post hundreds of complaints (in actuality probably more) in order to get separate art and maps provided for Dungeon and Dragon. Yes, they were eventually provided, but why did it have to be so begrudging - as if you were simply humoring us silly fans/customers?
We, your customers, are still waiting for the digital products that were promised to be online over 10 months ago (with some probably still as much as a year away).
We, your customers, are still angry about not having .pdf's available at a nominal fee AS PROMISED.
And now there are NO .pdf's - period!
We, your customers, are also left holding the bag for the loss of downloads that were purchased IN GOOD FAITH (whether part of a contract with WoTC or not, this reflects on you - how can you imagine it wouldn't?).
On top of it all, I don't even like 4E. However, I've supported WotC, because of the hobby I love, by spending at least $200 in the last 10 months (Core Books, DDI sub, Adventurers Vault, H1-H3, etc.).
Well not anymore! Apparently I need to be beat over the head a good five or six times by WotC before I realize that WoTC does not care about me or any other of their customers.
I am done with you, Wizards of the Coast.
I am canceling my DDI sub immediately, and will not be purchasing any of your products from here on out. I have more than enough books and meterials to last me two lifetimes. That didn't keep me from buying more, but I will no longer be buying from you. That money will now go towards an ENWorld Community Supporter acount (at least until you decide that ENWorld is competing with you also and shut this down).
My threshold has been reached. I do not wish WotC continued success. I do wish it a painful and messy death along the lines of TSR.
D&D will last forever. The OGL has ensured that. But I truly hope that WotC does not. And I truly hope that there are many more that feel the same. I hope that it foreshadows renewed interest in and success for OGL third party publishers (and other game systems), because if D&D is to survive it's up to them and us fans - especially as it seems obvious to me - WotC will, if they continue upon the path they are on, kill 4E and their company.
Goodbye and Good Riddance, Wizards of the Coast!
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
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UNLESS, of course, they make them all available on the WotC website for purchase. If WotC is opening their own .pdf store, then it makes sense.
(Although the WotC rep who popped in earlier said the reason for it was piracy, so I guess this isn't it.)
Whatever reason they said this was about the ending conclusion does not change:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WotC_Trevor
We are exploring other options for digitial distribution of our content and as soon as we have any more information I'll get it to you.
What I get out of this is an effort to transfer the PDF sales service to DDI subscribers or something like this. PDF sales is the only thing they can really account: they can't account piracy loses, I think. So why not make the most out of their sales, which is what is accounatble anyway? RPGnow must take its cut. If Wotc offers the service in house avoids this cost. It could also advertise DDI more or at least avoid advertising products of other companies through its presence in RPGnow.
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