General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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How will the WOTC PDF decision affect the Old School Renaissance?
Do you think it will matter that people can no longer buy any old edition books and modules? Will it push them towards the retroclones? I'd be interested to see the retroclone sales over the next few months on LULU, and see if they increase.
What are your thoughts on the matter?
It seems now is the time to have one place that is well known to buy or download for free all retroclones and all modules produced for the clones. One central clearinghouse, as well as selling thru rpgnow, etc.
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
Do you think it will matter that people can no longer buy any old edition books and modules? Will it push them towards the retroclones? I'd be interested to see the retroclone sales over the next few months on LULU, and see if they increase.
What are your thoughts on the matter?
It seems now is the time to have one place that is well known to buy or download for free all retroclones and all modules produced for the clones. One central clearinghouse, as well as selling thru rpgnow, etc.
It's a cr***py day, that's for sure. As to the retroclones, I'd always hoped that was just what we lawyers call a "belt AND suspenders" strategy. It looks like (in terms of bringing in new players), they are a bit more important now, which (as an author of a couple) sucks. For OD&D, quite a bit more important with the OOP books being expensive; for AD&D not terribly important in the short run with the paper books being cheap - except a lot of people prefer pdfs and lots of new players are in that crowd. For Basic, this has no effect whatsoever - WotC never made those pdfs available in the first place.
In terms of new publishing, as opposed to easy availablility of rules for tryout players, I think this has no effect on the Renaissance. I don't think this signals a hardening of IP policy; I think it's about trying to stop piracy and possibly consolidate WotC as the only online source, which is marketing, not IP.
I don't think it's at all crippling, but I'm still not at all happy about it. Partly because I think the effect on the OOP books probably never even crossed their minds in making this decision - I think this was about the new stuff.
Well, on a personal level, as somebody who really likes OD&D but can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on saddle-stitched pamphlets, Swords & Wizardry just became much more important to me.
OSRIC, which was previously important to me because it promised the possibility of allowing me to play old modules, just became vastly less important (as I can no longer obtain said modules easily or inexpensively).
Labyrinth Lord is still fun but I don't really think that it has been hurt too much one way or the other.
Now for some unplesant meanderings.
WotC really has been making an effort to rein in their IP through legal action lately. First there were rounds of cease and desist letters being issued to fansites and now we have verified RIAA-like lawsuits against internet bandits coupled with a total withdraw from the PDF market.
Just a few weeks back Scott Rouse assured me on these very forums that I was being overly paranoid when I asserted that WotC was trying to rein in control over their IP and that I was a real jerk for suggesting such a thing*. Right now, it looks like my initial gut feeling was 100% on the money.
I would like to believe that WotC isn't going to attempt leaning on some clone system publishers but I think all bets are off the table right now. They've implemented an extremely aggressive legal strategy that punishes loyal customers and has some real potential to hurt other PDF publishers.
If they told me today that they promised not to take action against clone system publishers, I wouldn't believe them. I mean, they're clearly circling their wagons now and anybody who denies it in the wake of this latest development is simply not being forthright.
Don't pee on my leg and tell me that it's raining.
I'm more than a little concerned about how much further this will go. I understand that WotC has every right to shut down any individual, site, or publisher that they perceive as a threat to their IP — I just hope that they don't purge their entire fanbase in the process.
*And in fairness, this latest bit of stupidity may have come as a complete shock to him as well, assuming that corporate skullduggery is as bad at WotC as it is elsewhere.
WotC is not an evil corporation. I suspect they'll shift online electronic sales of past edition materials to the Wizards.com website. They have announced since 4E the intention to sell 4th Edition materials online for a separate fee. I do not see why older editions wouldn't count.
If someone is really looking for an older D&D book that's took expensive to purchase in hardcover (and there aren't that many), then just be patient. The option should come back relatively soon.
__________________ The 4 forms of roleplay simulation:
Spoiler:
A customer calls tech support for help in solving a computer problem:
1. Neither are acting, but are consciously or unconsciously performing social roles.
2. Both are acting. The tech support specialist is knowingly learning from a trainer.
3. Only the customer is acting. He really has no problem or is a trainer performing unknown tests.
4. Only the tech is acting. He believes he is in a role play, but is unknowingly taking actual calls.
1 is the common RPing we do whenever conscious.
2 is the theatrical performance normally used in hobby games.
3&4 are both duplicitous forms of roleplaying.
And 4 could also be called the Ender's Game scenario.
Remarkably, all 4 transcripts are potentially identical.
It may help sales of OSR modules and supplements - paying for a new retro-clone module looks a lot more attractive now I can no longer buy the TSR originals in pdf form.
I would not expect a big effect though. Most Old School rules editions are available cheap via Ebay - Moldvay & Mentzer, certainly; even Holmes is fairly cheap. 1e is very cheap.
I would not expect a big effect though. Most Old School rules editions are available cheap via Ebay - Moldvay & Mentzer, certainly; even Holmes is fairly cheap. 1e is very cheap.
Some of it's cheap, some of it isn't, and some of it is pretty hard to find (even if it is cheap). It took me a whole year to get a complete set of the TSR UK modules in decent condition, for example. I could have bought the same modules at RPGNow in less than five minutes.
Some of it's cheap, some of it isn't, and some of it is pretty hard to find (even if it is cheap). It took me a whole year to get a complete set of the TSR UK modules in decent condition, for example. I could have bought the same modules at RPGNow in less than five minutes.
So true.
While I have a local place to buy old school stuff, it isn't always cheap. (The really cheap stuff is usually worn out.) Plus, I haven't been able to get everything I want, locally, and I'm not a fan of E-Bay.
I was considering buying one or two of the older modules from RPGNow but that option is now dead in the water. It's going to limit what I can get.
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
D&D v.3.5, d20 Modern, OSRIC, Pathfinder, True20... OGL Forever! Walk the Road
Avatar by Sialia
I'd imagine the "core books" or other stuff that sold in large numbers will remain cheap, but the harder to find stuff may very well spike. That goes for 1e, the various editions of Basic, even 2e.
__________________ "Y'know, I think my favorite thing about being a hero of destiny is that it gives you all kinds of narrative justification to just slay any ol' jerk who gets in your way." -- 8-bit Theater
"i did not serve with napolean in his artillery. but i did play wargames with him and his men." -- diaglo
Do you think it will matter that people can no longer buy any old edition books and modules? Will it push them towards the retroclones? I'd be interested to see the retroclone sales over the next few months on LULU, and see if they increase.
What are your thoughts on the matter?
I think that it will increase the piracy of old edition materials. It might also drive up the average price of printed copies on eBay.
WotC is not an evil corporation. I suspect they'll shift online electronic sales of past edition materials to the Wizards.com website. They have announced since 4E the intention to sell 4th Edition materials online for a separate fee. I do not see why older editions wouldn't count.
If someone is really looking for an older D&D book that's took expensive to purchase in hardcover (and there aren't that many), then just be patient. The option should come back relatively soon.
NO they are proving quite the "evil" corporation lately.
There is nothing wrong with WOTC requiring sites that sell PDF's to pay them a royalty. There is something wrong with WOTC making themselves the only outlet for PDF's.
Nothing WOTC has done recently has struck me as particularly friendly to the gaming industry outside of 4e. It makes 4e ring much stronger as $e. This is what I have referred to in previous posts as integrity to the gaming industry. WOTC has lost it.
I will still buy star wars products, but that is about it. Only because I am addicted to the SW IP.
I don't think I even care if they release Dark Sun anymore. I'll probably just ebay my 4th edition books and never look back.
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