Is WotC still the industry LEADER?

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by TerraDave

Do they lead like they did in 2000-2003. No. But that was sort of an anomaly. ...

I respectfully disagree with this.

I feel that their leading at that time was a direct result of a top down attitude of customers and gaming first. Definitely not an anomaly. It was a very specific result due to a purposeful and specific mentality and actions.

There's a common saying in the military: Take care of your people, and your people will take care of the mission.

In this situation I think you can correlate "customers" with "your people" (along with the workers at WotC). If you take care of your customers, your customers will take care of you. In a small niche industry like hobby gaming, it's even more true. A company that forgets this, or acts contrary to this, will eventually find itself without customers. Also, if you don't listen to your workers (people), you will also find yourself in this boat.

[CaptainChaos]

Originally Posted by Aberzanzorax

They've changed from:

Leader (someone you follow)

to Bully (someone you fear enough to do what they say).

Yes, exactly. And their defining trait has become arrogance and it is not serving them well.

[DaveMage]

Originally Posted by Hussar

True. But, those times changed long before now. Scarred Lands, which was WW's biggest D&D support, ended in 05 as I recall. When the d20 bubble popped, pretty much everyone got out of the game.

In the year before 4e was announced, how many publishers were supporting WOTC titles? 3, maybe 5? Sure, there was lots of small ones, but, I'm talking more serious sized companies. Paizo sized and the like.

AEG, Fantasy Flight Games, Goodman Games, Green Ronin, Kenzer, Malhavoc Press (via White Wolf), Margaret Weis Productions, Mongoose, Necromancer Games (via White Wolf and Kenzer), Paizo, and Paradigm Concepts all had releases in '06-07.

Originally Posted by Hussar

A lot of these changes occured quite some time ago. The days when there were companies lining up to ride on WOTC's train ended about the same time 3.5 hit the streets.

The glut stopped at this time, but the products kept coming, even if it was at a significantly more conservative pace.

Originally Posted by Hussar

Claiming that WOTC has lost its market leading position because companies aren't lining up now isn't really looking at the history very closely. Nobody's been knocking down WOTC's doors for years now. Even before all the hoopla of the last 18 months, those early days of 3e were dead and buried for quite some time.

But those early days were marked by *leadership* from WotC. All the other companies followed WotC's lead. Now they are slowly slicing into WotC's piece of the RPG pie - a pie that is shrinking with each passing day. WotC's losing ground, and the whole PnP RPG genre is seemingly in slow decline. As Ryan Dancey indicated elsewhere, rather than nurture the industry, they are taking what they can get and ignoring the whole.

[Kamikaze Midget]

Under that definition, I'm glad they aren't leading anymore. They were definitely leading when they got everyone to start making d20 versions of their games, but I'm not convinced that was actually good for gaming. It certainly led the gaming market in a given direction, but it wasn't a direction I particularly liked.

The idea about homogeneity is a fair cop, but that was kind of the strategy of WotC: get everyone playing versions of our game, and our game wins. It worked pretty well for them, there, as far as I can tell. And even then, there was variety in things like T20 or M&M or Arcana Unearthed or stuff like that. The system has been (and is being) explored quite rigorously.

There's also the idea that one system is better for the hobby in general. Better if Billy learns to play D&D and also knows how to play Vampire and Warhammer than if Billy needs to learn three different systems, each with 200+ page manuals. If you break down these system-walls, cross-pollination is much easier. Which is kind of the same idea that goes into 4e setting design within WotC from what we've seen: get everyone playing FR and everyone who plays FR can use everything from the core, too!

It's totally fair to not like that direction, but I do think, from a WotC-standpoint, it still made at least some business sense.

A leader guides focus towards something specific. I do not believe that this is a viable idea for the long term growth of the hobby. Maybe in the short term -but in the long term it will create bubble: as it happened indeed.

Sure. Maybe WotC shouldn't be a market leader. But Stan! argued that they were (and they were) and that they are losing it (which is a question more open to argument, I think, though no one seems to be saying that Stan! is wrong in thinking that they're losing it).

[coyote6]

Originally Posted by MerricB

The most amazing thing that Wizards did was create the OGL. How many significant games are there that use the OGL for their own rules system that isn't derived from an existing OGL game?

Hmm. FATE (or Fudge -- did they rerelease Fudge under the OGL?); Mongoose's version of RuneQuest; Mongoose's Traveller (IIRC); the Action! system (which is based on Fuzion, IIRC); Colonial Gothic & Thousand Suns (I believe they use the same system) -- those are the ones I can think of. I'm sure there's some I'm forgetting, and some more I don't know about.

I don't remember if any of Chad Underkoffler's games are OGL or not.

[Harlekin]

Originally Posted by Glyfair

On his blog, Stan! was recently discussing the pulling of PDFs by WotC. In his entry makes an very interesting point, whether you agree or disagree with it (or even think it matters).



and



I recommend reading the entire entry, with his view on WotC's history through his own experiences. I find it quite interesting.

Thoughts?

How about the following alternative reading: Piracy is bad for the Hobby as a whole. Most RPG companies have thin profit margins and cannot afford to lose even 5% of sales. Hence going against pirates is in the interest of the industry. According to jasonbostwick (contested) Paizo managed to reduce piracy by increasing their security and freezing out known pirates. However, Paizo cannot afford to do anything more against the pirates, all they manage to do is plug a hole.

Wizards can do more, they can actually send a message to pirates by going after some of them. Of course this will not end piracy, but it may make some people think twice before uploading material of any RPG company, as they now know they they may get into trouble for this. This will reduce the supply of pirated material.
Remember that the most commonly used security measurement (Watermarking) only works with the implicit threat that you get into trouble if your mark is found on pirated material. Again, for this threat to work, someone has to be willing to actually sue for damages.

So you could argue that wizards is acting exactly like a leader should, doing what the smaller players in the market place cannot do.

[primarchone]

Originally Posted by Alikar

I really don't get how people are even beginning to think that Wotc is not the industry leader. Look at the PDF news. People are mad because they want to play the game Wotc makes. I mean the PHBs are selling like mad and I'm sure the other Wotc books are doing just as well.

As much as some people may not want to admit it, the industry leader is determined by sales and nothing else.

Hi!

I agree with this completely. Most definitions I have seen are too subjective and are a "moving target".

In business a market leader is he with the largest market share. Its an objective measure. You either have the most market share or you don't. AT this point in time, that's WOTC hands down. Until that changes that only way NOT to make them the market leader is to change the definition.

Primarchone

[cdrcjsn]

Originally Posted by Harlekin

So you could argue that wizards is acting exactly like a leader should, doing what the smaller players in the market place cannot do.

Good point.

WotC has had a lot of gaffes in the PR field, but they've also done a lot of innovation.

Outstanding retail support for game stores.
World wide organization of gamers at most conventions.
Online initiative.

Financially, is this really a boneheaded move? How many gamers actually bought those PDFs?

This move however might just kill the ability of older editions to grow.

With PDF versions of older editions gone, as well as their supplements and published adventures, they'll pretty much guarantee that in coming years, 4e is the only D&D in people's minds, especially to newer players.

[coyote6]

By suing the scallawag pirates, sure, WotC is leading. But pulling their PDFs is kind of like drydocking all your trans-ocean shipping in response to nautical pirates -- yeah, you may reduce the loss of your goods, but you also aren't getting your goods to your paying customers, and are regressing technologically.

However, as to "leading" -- I think WotC is both leading, and not leading, simultaneously.

The DDI is pretty new to the industry, and, from what I hear, pretty awesome. D&D 4e is an interesting design, that almost seems kind of indie-like in its dedication to its purpose (it's for a particular kind of fantasy game, with particular characteristics and goals, and it is focused pretty tightly on that, AFAICT; moreso than 3e, IMO [though my actual 4e play experience is limited]), which is something a lot of indie designs do. On the other hand, they have tightened their licensing restrictions, removed PDFs (at least temporarily) & thus decreased their digital presence, and had some not-so-great PR & marketing at times. So you've got forward-looking leadership and innovation, and then kind of the opposite, going on at the same time.

[Wicht]

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding Stans! point. Which makes me wonder if they really carefully read the editorial.

This has nothing to do with money. He acknowledges that they are still the 800 lb gorilla. And he was not talking about being innovative either if I understand him aright, and I think I do.

By leading, Stan! is really talking about helping and teaching, showing people a better way of doing things. The view of a leader is not the same as that of a competitor. The old view was that the RPG hobby was an army, or perhaps a family. What helped one helped all. WotC was the man in front, showing the way for everybody to profit.

Now WotC sees not a family of gamers, but a field of competitors. Its a different mindset. WotC, from all appearances is not trying to lead, they are trying to dominate. Its not the same thing.

[billd91]

I think Stan! hits it out of the park. Exerting dominance and out-competing (having the "lead" in competition) aren't the the same as exercising leadership. Never have been.
People may tend to look to the one out in front for leadership, but I think it's become relatively clear that they no longer are. Steve Jackson Games, Paizo, Green Ronin, White Wolf - who of these has viewed the PDF decision as a leadership decision? None. They've done the opposite.

[Cadfan]

Personally, I think that Stan! has defined "leadership" to the point where no one in a competitive industry can actually achieve it.

[JVisgaitis]

Originally Posted by DaveMage

The glut stopped at this time, but the products kept coming, even if it was at a significantly more conservative pace.

The glut stopped because the industry tanked. DoA was the first monster book out for 3.5. As a 3.0 product, we had 1,400 pre-orders. 2 months later when we revamped for 3.5 it dropped to 500. And I was told that those were very impressive numbers at the time.

[Darrin Drader]

I'm sure I'll surprise nobody when I say that I fully agree with Stan! In fact, I've said as much here in the past.

Here's what bothers me about this. When WotC was trying to be the good shepherd for the industry, they still dominated the market. The philosophy was that anything that was good for gaming was in turn good for D&D, which was also good for WotC. Sure, things slowed down towards the end of 3.5, which is to be expected (keeping in mind of course that D&D in its slowed down form still would have been considered a smashing success by any gaming company other than Hasbro).

As Stan! notes, somewhere the philosophy changed. I don't know exactly when it happened (probably shortly before I left), but the new WotC disturbs me. I still see many of the same creative people working on stuff, and I know they're good people, but the things that are being done of the business end show a disregard for the people who have come to rely on them for certain things. The GSL (particularly the first version), pulling the PDFs, cancelling Dragon and Dungeon out from under Paizo... these things affected people who in whole or in part based their businesses around WotC's responsible leadership.

Was WotC contractually oligated to keep doing these things? No, clearly not. They were within their rights to halt themagazines, pull the PDFs and make a new license for the new game. Is what they're doing substandard? Again, no. They can manage their content however they want.

Is what they're doing ethically wrong? You can make an argument either way on this. I'm not a fan of how they yanked the rug out from under Paizo, but again, the contract ran out and they made a decision. Paizo decided to soldier on and seems to be doing OK, maybe even great, but I'm sure that this was not an easy transition for them. Does WotC owe people unlimited access to unprotected PDFs? No, not really, but there are a number of people who took advantage of the format and have integrated it into their gaming experience. This is leaving them with one less tool to work with, which is a disappointment that is real.

The point here isn't that what WotC is doing is wrong, but that it's not as open and friendly as what we've become accustomed to. There are a number of companies that are still open and friendly, and I think that's what it means to be an industry leader. The leaders I see are Paizo, Mongoose, and Green Ronin, with an honorable mention going to Goodman Games.

Paizo is providing leadership by continuing to provide great game content for an edition that many people continue to embrace, and by offering a compatability license to anyone who wants to publish material for their new version of D&D.

Green Ronin is providing leadership by providing real feedback on what's happening in the industry that is only lightly filtered, making compatability licenses available for M&M and True20, and for modifying their catalog of truly awesome previously available titles so that people can still buy them.

Mongoose... what can I say about Mongoose? When they first appeared on the scene I was critical of them because of the sheer quantity of product they were producing. Despite my misgivings, I kept following their stuff and buying the occasional product, and coming away with the impression that it's not half bad. In the years since they've taken what was a small publishing company and done some really amazing and wonderful things. Babylon 5, Conan, Judge Dredd, Lone Wolf, and more, all great stuff. And, leadership wise, they're all about being an industry leader with their Flaming Cobra line. The sole intention of Flaming Cobra is to share resources with smaller publishers, elevating by a considerable amount what would be possible (but difficult) to achieve without their help.

These are strong examples of leadership.

The one area where I think WotC is still acting as a leader is appealing to the casual gamer, getting them into game stores and buying stuff, thereby increasing the overall health of the brick and mortar stores. For the longest time the reports I'd been hearing about 4E were negative. A lot of people weren't enjoying it, people weren't playing it, and it wasn't helping anyone. Recently I've been hearing reports that 4E is in fact drawing in new players and a lot of lapsed players. This may not benefit me directly since it isn't one of my games of choice, but anything that grows the hobby as a whole is positive.

[Pramas]

Originally Posted by billd91

People may tend to look to the one out in front for leadership, but I think it's become relatively clear that they no longer are. Steve Jackson Games, Paizo, Green Ronin, White Wolf - who of these has viewed the PDF decision as a leadership decision? None. They've done the opposite.

I can't think of a good reason to follow their lead on that decision. If it's a precursor to WotC selling their own PDFs, all the companies you name have been doing that already for years so really WotC would be following our lead. If ceasing to sell PDFs is actually the entirety of their plan, said plan can't be taken seriously by anyone who understands the issues surrounding piracy.