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And since these lawsuits are specifically about pirating of PH2, it may be hard to determine how much money they lost, when by all accounts, PH2 is SOLD OUT!
But yeah, as others have mentioned, of those @3000 or less downloads, how many were done by folks that already had bought a physical copy?
I think the simplest point to make is that, assuming the 2,993 downloads of illegal pdfs is accurate, we know with reasonable assurance that those 2,993 people wanted a pdf copy of the PHB2 (if they didn't want it, why did they download it?) but did not pay for it. That is a direct loss. It does not matter if they would have paid for it. Nor does it matter if they paid for it in another format. 2,993 people allegedly stole an illegal copy instead of paying for it. It is cut and dry to me.
I think the simplest point to make is that, assuming the 2,993 downloads of illegal pdfs is accurate, we know with reasonable assurance that those 2,993 people wanted a pdf copy of the PHB2 (if they didn't want it, why did they download it?) but did not pay for it. That is a direct loss. It does not matter if they would have paid for it. Nor does it matter if they paid for it in another format. 2,993 people allegedly stole an illegal copy instead of paying for it. It is cut and dry to me.
Fair enough, but many of us don't see it as cut and dry.
Many of us don't see file sharing as theft either, but that can be debated endlessly.
Another example of a WotC blunder: They could have sold these lawsuit .pdfs for phat l00ts. Now, valuable information such as this is available free on the internet when they could have sold these at a dollar a pop. When will they join the 21st century!?
, obviously.
__________________ All role playing advice is given without knowledge of you and your group. Only you and your group knows what is fun for you. What you are doing is not badwrongfun. My advice is offered based on what I think might be fun for you to try.
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Last edited by roguerouge; 9th April 2009 at 04:16 PM..
Fair enough, but many of us don't see it as cut and dry.
Many of us don't see file sharing as theft either, but that can be debated endlessly.
And I think that is a root problem with our society. People want things but are unwilling to pay for them. It may be going too far to call it Theft. But this attitude of Sharing other people's works and feeling entitled to do so through illegal means has caused this current problem. Yes, I am completely in agreement with 99.99% of posters here that WotC's reaction to the problem is completely off-base and will prove ineffective and I wish they had taken a different tactic. But the problem was caused by people rationalizing their illegal actions as ethical behavior. I'm sorry we all must suffer because some people cannot discern the difference between right and wrong.
While I think a program that scrubs out the watermarks given two PDFs to compare against would be quite easy. It would be MUCH easier to buy a PDF under a false name using a gift card or stolen credit card number. All from the convenience of a public WiFi location.
Personally I have a downloaded PDF for every hardcopy I own, since i don't like hauling 20+ books to every gaming session. I bring a USB flash drive with all my books and the 1 or 2 books I plan on using. Were those downloads illegal? Maybe, but since I own the book in question, it hardly matters.
And I think that is a root problem with our society. People want things but are unwilling to pay for them. It may be going too far to call it Theft. But this attitude of Sharing other people's works and feeling entitled to do so through illegal means has caused this current problem. Yes, I am completely in agreement with 99.99% of posters here that WotC's reaction to the problem is completely off-base and will prove ineffective and I wish they had taken a different tactic. But the problem was caused by people rationalizing their illegal actions as ethical behavior. I'm sorry we all must suffer because some people cannot discern the difference between right and wrong.
But see, the problem is who gets to decide unequivocally for everyone what's right and what's wrong?
I respect your right to feel the way you do, but honestly, we all have to realize that not everyone suscribes to the same values/morals/ethics.
It is illegal.
Immoral? By some standards. By all standards? Not by any means.
After they win a civil case on the people, HOW difficult will it be for the "State" to go after them for a criminal case? They have already proved them guilty in case. That is basically an automatic conviction if you don't mess it up.
Incorrect..
It takes far less to get a civil case to award in your favor then to be convicted of a criminal case.
But see, the problem is who gets to decide unequivocally for everyone what's right and what's wrong?
I respect your right to feel the way you do, but honestly, we all have to realize that not everyone suscribes to the same values/morals/ethics.
It is illegal.
Immoral? By some standards. By all standards? Not by any means.
I was going to say I never brought morality into the discussion and then I thought to educate myself. I see that ethics and morals are synonymous at times and each has a myriad of meanings.
My understanding was and the usage I perpetuate when I speak on the matter is that ethics are more absolute. Who gets to decide what is ethical behavior? Our society through its laws. So, to me, Illegal = Unethical.
My understanding and usage of immoral is much different and that is why I avoid using the term. Who decides what is immoral? The individual. That is why moral debates IMO are useless. To me, immoral does not equal illegal by necessity, nor does something being illegal mean it is automatically immoral.
So, under my personal definitions of ethical behavior I still hold that people downloading material illegally are acting in an unethical manner. But I geuss I could leave the term Unethical out of the discussion in the future and be clearer by using the term Illegal or explaining myself more clearly instead of using the term Unethical as a form of shorthand.
(if they didn't want it, why did they download it?)
Abject stupidity? Or rather, not really weighing it with the same seriousness they would an actual purchase.
I mean, I've certainly downloaded stuff before that I later realized I would never use in any fashion and then deleted unopened. Since the purchasing barrier for a free internet download is basically nothing - click on link, decide where to save to, hit OK - you get an amazingly higher amount of downloads than you would purchases.
1. Wizards has stopped PDF sales DESPITE the fact that the existing security process allowed them to identify the sources of the pirated materials... um, so that they can have time to come up with a security system that would let them, um, identify the source of pirated materials.
2. This relates to fewer than 3,000 copies. The legal fees alone would have already exceeded the total revenue (and not profit) of 3,000 sales at MRRP!
3. For the sake of 3,000 copies that probably had no impact on Wizards' revenues (or profits), Wizards has unleashed an Epic-level spell of nerdrageacross the internet doing untold damage to the brand with those of us who actually buy their products.
No business should be run by its lawyers. And I say that as someone who likes lawyers, who has close friends and business partners who are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that I let them run the commercial side of my businesses (just as I don't run the legal side of my businesses).
...
If Wizards has a CEO who is worth his pay he should be stepping in right now and providing some real leadership.
Yes, very stupid. I'm hoping that the Q&A thing the ENWorld staff has arranged with WotC is a part of that last paragraph.
I think it's worth noting that the pdfs don't say everything. For starters, the alleged pirate from the Philippines is a minor.
So WotC, we're trying to attack minors in third world countries now? And yet you're the ones talking about morals and ethics?
Edit: Also, isn't it illegal to name a minor in papers like this? Hahahaha. WotC, you're not good at this, are you?
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Last edited by ProfessorCirno; 10th April 2009 at 12:56 AM..
I think it's worth noting that the pdfs don't say everything. For starters, the alleged pirate from the Philippines is a minor.
So WotC, we're trying to attack minors in third world countries now? And yet you're the ones talking about morals and ethics?
Edit: Also, isn't it illegal to name a minor in papers like this? Hahahaha. WotC, you're not good at this, are you?
Being a minor is no excuse, nor is living in a so-called "third world country". He obviously had access to computer and a credit card, this can't be a starving ignorant boy in a shanty. He broke the law and WoTC is in the right to go after him.
And from what I understand, it's not illegal to name the minors of civil lawsuits. It may be illegal to release the name of criminal defendants, but that would depend on the nature of the crime, the district, and mitigating circumstances (minor and juvenile are two separate terms, for instance).
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Forum FYI:
Kask is not the famous Tim Kask of the early days of TSR
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Trying to prevent any .pdf's being made and distributed is like trying to swim up a waterfall.
Even if they came up with virtually airtight security, as has been shown it's possible (thanks to cash, public WiFi, and other anonymous means) to purchase the book in question, anonymously obtaining the hardware and software required to turn the book into a file, and then distribute it and work around watermarks in scanners and printers.
It's just a matter of how much money and effort is someone willing to put into doing something that they aren't doing for financial gain. Someone does this because they either want to share the book with others (like a lot of out-of-print pdf's on the P2P nets that are probably out there because somebody wants to share some old gem they like), or because they are just irate at the company in question and see it as their little petty revenge.
Someone really, really doesn't like 4e and wants to "stick it to WotC" as revenge for canceling 3.5 (or eliminating the legal pdf downloads from the web, or other nerdrage target of the month)? I could see somebody spending a few hundred dollars on the right hardware and books and putting lots of stuff out on the net. WotC's lawyers will run themselves ragged chasing it all down, and if somebody is pretty cagey it's going to be really hard to get it traced back to you.
This is the same sort of thing that the music industry went through, and what really cut into that piracy was making high quality, affordable downloads easily available (iTunes et al), not pulling the legal downloads from the web and suing.
I honestly wonder what goes through the Hasbro execs minds sometimes. It's crystal clear that WotC is not run in any way, shape or form by gamers, nerds, or the like, but the "suits" who use standard large-corporation procedures and mentalities. In theory this is good because it's the professionals who are supposed to know how to do things, but it can mean seeing the same mistakes that other businesses have made repeated over again because of the same patterns of behavior.
Someone really, really doesn't like 4e and wants to "stick it to WotC" as revenge for canceling 3.5 (or eliminating the legal pdf downloads from the web, or other nerdrage target of the month)? I could see somebody spending a few hundred dollars on the right hardware and books and putting lots of stuff out on the net. WotC's lawyers will run themselves ragged chasing it all down, and if somebody is pretty cagey it's going to be really hard to get it traced back to you.
It goes beyond even that. So far, the three alleged pirates in this case that I've seen or known were all huge 4e fans. That's why they shared the product. And there's always going to be fans that scan the book and throw it up on rapidshare for their friends. The rs spreads, other people see it, then someone takes it and others and puts the compilation torrent on demonoid. Most of the "pirates" that spread files are people who LOVE the product. That's why they're sharing it.
And that's why killing pirating is impossible. So long as people like the product, it's going to be shared.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Most of the "pirates" that spread files are people who LOVE the product. That's why they're sharing it.
And that's why killing pirating is impossible. So long as people like the product, it's going to be shared.
You also can't stop counterfeiting. Should the governments of the world just let it go? (I really hate the paralogical statement about "we should ignore piracy, because you can't stop it". We should also stop wiping our rears, because they're just gonna get dirty again! Or we should ignore immunization because we're all going to die anyway. Or we should stop having door locks because they won't really stop a determined thief!)
Loving a product does not mean you get to do what you want with it. Wrapping up an illegal act as something to ignore because it's done out of "love" is pretty assinine.
If you're a true fan, you would have some empathy, and pay the company their asking price. Otherwise, your not a real fan, you're a selfish person. Most fans will pay the writer, performer, etc.
__________________
Forum FYI:
Kask is not the famous Tim Kask of the early days of TSR
I am that weird guy you see buried deep down in the credits section on many of EGGs later products.
Last edited by JohnRTroy; 10th April 2009 at 04:32 AM..
You also can't stop counterfeiting. Should the governments of the world just let it go? (I really hate the paralogical statement about "we should ignore piracy, because you can't stop it". We should also stop wiping our rears, because they're just gonna get dirty again! Or we should ignore immunization because we're all going to die anyway. Or we should stop having door locks because they won't really stop a determined thief!)
Loving a product does not mean you get to do what you want with it. Wrapping up an illegal act as something to ignore because it's done out of "love" is pretty assinine.
If you're a true fan, you would have some empathy, and pay the company their asking price. Otherwise, your not a real fan, you're a selfish person. Most fans will pay the writer, performer, etc.
Counterfeiting isn't pirating, though.
You're also confusing the idea of "liking a product" with "Absolutely loving the product and having your laptop desktop be a picture of, say, Chris Avellone." And again, the puddle of what is and isn't pirating is a very muddy one.
I have, let's say, the PHB2. The others at my table don't. I let them use it while we play. Is there pirating going on? More so, would any of you at this website tell your other group members "No, you can't use this book. Not until you've bought it. Only I'm allowed to use it."
I have a LOT of books they don't. I let them use it while we play. Is it pirating now?
I let them borrow the books when we aren't playing because they're interested. How about now? Piracy?
Replace books with pdfs. Are any of those steps now (or no longer) piracy?
I put the pdfs on a website so they access them easier.
I compile the various feats, spells, classes, abilities, paragon paths, etc, onto one pdf.
I let others use that pdf.
I let others borrow that pdf.
I put that pdf on a website. It's probably the most insanely useful thing in all of existance. I tell only my group.
And now things get tricky. Take any of the above examples regarding the pdf or pdfs and add "Other people find out about it and download it as well."
Am I a nasty, dirty pirate?
Counterfeiting and piracy are drastically different things. You should know not to try and compare them. I see your strawman, and refuse it.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
I think the simplest point to make is that, assuming the 2,993 downloads of illegal pdfs is accurate, we know with reasonable assurance that those 2,993 people wanted a pdf copy of the PHB2 (if they didn't want it, why did they download it?) but did not pay for it. That is a direct loss. It does not matter if they would have paid for it. Nor does it matter if they paid for it in another format. 2,993 people allegedly stole an illegal copy instead of paying for it. It is cut and dry to me.
Except WotC didn't actually lose anything. Whether 12 people or 1200 people download a PDF makes no direct impact on their bottom line. Such is the nature of the digital media. When dealing with digital piracy, ultimately we're talking in terms of opportunity cost. So we have the following subsets of downloaders.
People who downloaded the PDF and bought the book.
People who downloaded the PDF instead of buying the book.
People who downloaded the PDF but would not have bought the book either way.
Of those sets, the first represent possible profits that were achieved (no opportunity cost), the second represent possible profits that were not achieved (here be opportunity cost), and the third represent profits which were not possible (no opportunity cost). Those sets obviously aren't going to consist of equal numbers, but only the second represents a missing profit -- which again, isn't attainable at the moment anyway since the book isn't available. So they're not even a present opportunity cost.
Downloading a PDF is not tantamount to stealing a physical book. That isn't to say that the former is something to be endorsed, but you're very obviously miscoloring the situation if you fall into the trap of "You wouldn't steal a car..."
I put that pdf on a website. It's probably the most insanely useful thing in all of existance. I tell only my group.
And now things get tricky. Take any of the above examples regarding the pdf or pdfs and add "Other people find out about it and download it as well."
Am I a nasty, dirty pirate?
Yes.
As a small publisher, I too recently found my work on scribd. To be frank, I don't mind our customers sharing our products around the game table (preferably in a printed format), but when someone puts it on the net for free - that takes potential money right out of our pocket.
As a small publisher, a good selling .pdf sale for us is 150-250 copies in the first month or so, but I was disgusted to find that nearly 1,300 people either viewed or downloaded the product for free (more than any one individual product sale in our 5 years of publishing).
It is like going to work, working hard that day, and your boss telling you you're not getting paid. Unlike a WotC employee, I do not get paid until I sell my product. And if they don't sell products, they fire employees.
If people LOVE our products so much, then please tell your friends to invest in our company by paying the $4.00-$7.00 dollars to encourage us to make more of the same and to continue to do what we do.
If I lived in a society that I didn't have to pay for food or a car payment, house, etc. I wouldn't mind people downloading our products for free, but since people who buy our products need money for other things, so do we.
I mainly got into publishing for love of the game, but I do personally invest my time, work, and money in each of our products (I also sometimes get burned out).
What I think is really disparaging about the whole thing is WotC even reduced the costs of their .pdfs with the launch of 4th Edition instead of pricing them, as they did before, as the same cost as a printed book. It is just a slap in the face.
As for the minor argument, I was a minor too - before file sharing and the internet - I saved my hard earned money (working at Dairy Queen, allowance, odd jobs, etc.) to get the D&D books I loved. It is called learning responsibility and managing your priorities. After all, I did not get all the books I wanted.
More importantly, I did share with friends (either their books or mine), and did borrow from the library D&D books I fortunately found there, but in the end - I had to give them back. And if I lost a book or did not return it (either to the library or my friend), I had to pay a fee or buy the book. That is something that you can't do with a file share - return it.
If you love a .pdf and want to share it - print it out and keep it around the table like any other book or better yet, buy a copy for a friend (if you can afford it). There is no excuse for illegal file sharing.
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