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The fact one of them then posted the file on the internet as well is just the icing on the cake in this case and is what made it visible to WOTC - the file was (assuming I'm right) already being pirated by all of these various 'local' users.
But funny to mention that copying a cd, file, game isn't illegal in germany as long as no copy protection prohibits it. I can easily share all my pdf files with my friends and am legal afaik. We have a law that explicitly allows private copies. So if someone does anything illegal with the stuff i gave him he is doing it and needs to be sued and not me. Illegal like sharing it with the world over torrent or anything like that.
So if i game with lets see 8 friends i can give everyone a copy and they can keep it without buying it. The only thing they may not do is share it with others. Show - yes - share - not.
Somehow i think our laws differ much in certain social points.
Hmmm... what if a patron borrowed a book from a public library and scanned it? What if he *stole* it? Would the library be held responsible if there would be several patrons who might have done this, but the exact scanning date (and, therefore, the patron responsible for doing so) could not be determined? Let's assume that the only thing we could say for sure is that this particular pirated copy is/was owned by a public library -- what happens, and who's held responsible for it?
The library is not liable for actions done by library users under US law (which I am the most familiar with). However, this is partly because Libraries and Archives have their own exemption- Title 17: Section 108, Limitations on exclusive rights: Reproduction by libraries and archives. They have to meet certain criteria and take some actions to be protected by that statute.
This person, assuming what he writes is correct, is not in a good situation. If his interpretation of Polish law is accurate, then he could legally share his copy in the manner that he described absent contractual obligations (which would also be covered by Polish law).
However, the actions of the person who further shared the materials on scribd are actionable beyond Poland. It's that person, though, that should be on trial rather than this individual. However, it's his name on the documents, so he'll need to use that in a defense.
Guys, really. Copyright does not magically disappear once you hop across an ocean. This is not the Dukes of Hazzard, and you are not on a moonshine run.
Poland is a signatory to the Berne Convention, and everything that implies.
Quote:
The Berne Convention requires its signatories to recognize the copyright of works of authors from other signatory countries (known as members of the Berne Union) in the same way it recognises the copyright of its own nationals. For example, French copyright law applies to anything published or performed in France, regardless of where it was originally created.
As most everyone has been saying, your best course of action is to stop digging your hole deeper and just retain an attorney. Do not believe the people who are telling you that copyright law magically disappears when you cross a political border - they really have no idea what they're talking about.
Guys, really. Copyright does not magically disappear once you hop across an ocean. This is not the Dukes of Hazzard, and you are not on a moonshine run.
Poland is a signatory to the Berne Convention, and everything that implies.
As most everyone has been saying, your best course of action is to stop digging your hole deeper and just retain an attorney. Do not believe the people who are telling you that copyright law magically disappears when you cross a political border - they really have no idea what they're talking about.
-O
I'm not certain that's what people were saying. The way that Berne, and just about every other copyright treaty works, is that they provide guidelines that need to be enacted domestically. Generally, these guidelines offer guaranteed minimums of protection. Part of the convention is reciprocal- like the example you quoted, any potentially infringing action is under the jurisdiction of the member country. In France, US works are protected just as French works are protected. In Poland, US works are protected just as Polish works are protected. This also applies to legal limitations- for example, libraries can lend British works under the US doctrine of first sale in the US, even though British libraries follow different law in the UK and must take additional steps to lend books.
So, in Poland, *if* his initial action was legal under a Polish private use exemption, then it was legal. The problem then comes with the additional distribution on the Internet. Not only is that very likely illegal under Polish law, it means the action *also* took place in the US jurisdiction, making it actionable in the US. This is a bit of an oversimplification, but it means that the person infringing is also liable in the US as well.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm happy to confess I'm far from an expert in this sort of thing.
And yes, I'm sure that WotC will need to take some sort of action in Poland as well. As far as I know, though, the U.S. suit is a prerequisite for any other actions.
The wheels of justice might move a bit slower across political boundaries, but they still move.
What written discovery? The defendant is in Poland. US Courts can't extradite someone for discovery in a civil case. Unless the defendant chooses to fight this in the US Courts the case will be decided in WotC favor for non-appearance. WotC is then obligated to refile in Poland in order to collect its judgment. He may want to contact a lawyer about the possibility of this and what to do, but there will be no discovery unless he chooses to come to the US and fight.
Brown Jenkin, Mr. Radzikowski might talk to that lawyer and he might give the exact same advice. Still seems like a good idea to talk to that lawyer before he posts about this case.
For all I know, his lawyer might agree with every word you say, and even encourage Defendant to go online and tell his story and stoke the fiery flames of nerd rage. In which case, what's the harm in waiting?
It is against the law to resell dvds, cds, books, etc.
No, no it isn't, certainly not in the UK at least...
I'll be charitable and say that you may be confusing yourself with the legal text in the front of books which says; "The sale of this book without its cover has not been approved by the publisher." Which is basically there to stop it being resold without the author and publisher's names.
__________________ darrell
Last edited by darrell I; 10th April 2009 at 01:22 AM..
I'll be charitable and say that you may be confusing yourself with the legal text in the front of books which says; "The sale of this book without its cover has not been approved by the publisher." Which is basically there to stop it being resold without the author and publisher's names.
That's not why that blurb is there.
When a store wishes to let a publisher know that a book or magazine has not been sold, rather than send the whole book back, they just send the front cover. (Shipping back the entire book is economically unfeasible.) The book is reported as unsold & destroyed, and the store receives some reimbursement.
Unethical bookstores might try to sell a book that they have also reported as unsold and destroyed. The blurb lets them (and you) know that this is illegal.
When a store wishes to let a publisher know that a book or magazine has not been sold, rather than send the whole book back, they just send the front cover. (Shipping back the entire book is economically unfeasible.) The book is reported as unsold & destroyed, and the store receives some reimbursement.
Unethical bookstores might try to sell a book that they have also reported as unsold and destroyed. The blurb lets them (and you) know that this is illegal.
-O
It took me so long to get registered that you beat me to this answer.
Incidentally, this system is why books cost about twice what they ought to. It's also why print-on-demand boutiques could be competitive.
Mostly it's not the *stores* that try to sell stripped books, but unethical employees and/or trash searchers.
As for the thread, after some 90 posts, aren't people getting tired of saying "shut up and get a lawyer"? If he hasn't yet, one more post saying it isn't going to convince him.
(BTW, he has at least decided to shut up on ENWorld.)
As most everyone has been saying, your best course of action is to stop digging your hole deeper and just retain an attorney. Do not believe the people who are telling you that copyright law magically disappears when you cross a political border - they really have no idea what they're talking about.
Well, that wasn't my case I said he's probably in some trouble. But I can say for sure that no international law can prevail over brazilian law, for example, creating some sanction that exists on US but does not exist on Brasil.
__________________ And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make
So first they attack a minor in the Philippines, and now they're going after some guy in Poland? And NONE of the defendants have been notified of the court case, either.
Did WotC even look at the court case before they lunged foward?
...Also, isn't it illegal to name a minor in court case papers?
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
So first they attack a minor in the Philippines, and now they're going after some guy in Poland? And NONE of the defendants have been notified of the court case, either.
Did WotC even look at the court case before they lunged foward?
...Also, isn't it illegal to name a minor in court case papers?
Court cases work like this. You file first at the court, and then a process server attempts to send official notification to the defendants. The filing at the court happens first. You worry about getting in touch with them before the actual trial, not before things are filed. You have to file first before contacting them. Here's the first step of a lawsuit from Wikipedia
Quote:
A lawsuit begins when a complaint is filed with the court. This complaint will state that one or more plaintiffs is seeking damages or equitable relief from one or more stated defendants, and will identify the legal and factual bases for doing so. The clerk of a court signs a summons, which is then served by the plaintiff upon the defendant, together with a copy of the complaint. This service notifies the defendants that they are being sued and that they have a specific time limit to file a response. By providing a copy of the complaint, the service also notifies the defendants of the nature of the claims. Once the defendants are served with the summons and complaint, they have a time limit to file an answer identifying their defenses to the plaintiff's claims, including any challenges to the court's jurisdiction, and any counterclaims they wish to assert against the plaintiff.
I think it's only illegal to name a minor in criminal cases, not civil cases. And I think for Criminal, in the US, it varies by state and district (and likely the crime).
__________________
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I am that weird guy you see buried deep down in the credits section on many of EGGs later products.
Last edited by JohnRTroy; 10th April 2009 at 01:17 AM..
I can say for sure that no international law can prevail over brazilian law, for example, creating some sanction that exists on US but does not exist on Brasil.
Except that Brazil signed the Berne Convention, which means that they specifically have created a "Brazilian law" to agree to honor copyright rulings from other countries.
Guys, really. Copyright does not magically disappear once you hop across an ocean. This is not the Dukes of Hazzard, and you are not on a moonshine run.
Poland is a signatory to the Berne Convention, and everything that implies.
Recognizing copyright and having he same laws or letting US law apply in poland is very different. Poland, Hungary, etc recognizes the copyright, but says licencing for personal copies are authorized by a representative of copyright holder assigned by the state, this representation is mandatory.
THEN these agencies print small holographic labels to put on devices you can use to reproduce books, and also on supplies for printers, etc. for a fee (it can be huge fee) to authorize personal copies made.
The fee is paid even if you use a printer to print invoices for a company, you pay it when you print your own photos, etc. so the money is quite significant and it covers the licence fees.
Part of this money is sent to USA to an agency to distribute between publishers there.
This is how the system works.
Fair use - which is recognized by international copyright agreements - is another thing he can explore.
If he can show that the game can only be played in a suggested medium, in the normal way (not all people buying all the books, including modules) it is played and WOTC is markets that, he can claim the copying that is "required" for such normal use of the product should be covered by the permissions, since wotc sold the product for its use, saying otherwise later isn't enforcable.
If you sell directly to poland such limits from poland or any other european country should be obeyed by international treaties. And it is strong reasoning, since if they don't allow any copying (even if they are required), how the print optimized books work? How can you open the file (copy it to your RAM), etc?
By making the product work this way if you use it for its (advertised) purpose that is: the copyright owner giving permission through his actions taken while designing the product and offering it this way (and advertising it this way).
So far in Hungary many music publishers tried to sue major dc hubs, torrent sites, claiming that p2p is distribution, but the court always said: no it is personal copying and people pay a licence fee through central authority to permit such copying, so nothing illegal happened.
(With software you can only make backup copy, no centralized licensing for that... sadly)
Did it make us not recognizing copyright? No.
But it did make the copy a licenced and authorized copy.
Why? Because when
Circumventing a copy protection scheme, modifying the copyrighted work, etc. is a different story, etc.
I think the key concern here isn't only abour piracy. I don't play D&D 4e, nor 3e, so for me it isn't that interesting. But people who do play, want to attract new players and for this they offer demo groups.
Thanks to competition from online vendors (amazon for example) many stores and clubs where that was possible were closed, and wizards is switching its attention to online medium.
In an online demo group of the full game where only the DM has the rulebook you can't avoid sending parts of copyrighted material required to play the game.
Why? The game, and the current tools, current electronic versions are designed this way.
PDF is great. But most people can't extract the few pages the demo players need for the game. It is part of the design of the products, and it is one of the key problems.
With your DRM free copy, you could have a 2nd copy with a very restrictive drm (with timed licences acquired on opening) for using the book with friends or in demo groups in online play. Without this 2nd, protected copy, your only chance is to send them the watermarked unprotected copy.
Simply: Wizards is a huge organization, and people who made this decision probably doesn't play the game, so didn't knew these problems, they made bad decisions, and now suing minors.
I am not only concerned about these people, but I am concerned, that with this no more people will be willing to demo games online, noone will run games online, if they have to share files (show handouts) with players, etc. so the move is destructive and not only for the 8 defendants.
Except that Brazil signed the Berne Convention, which means that they specifically have created a "Brazilian law" to agree to honor copyright rulings from other countries.
sorry, but i think you get it wrong. I am no lawyer and may be mistaken, but as i understood the berne convention it simply tells that things under copyright in other countries get handled as if they had copyright in your own country. There is no way that a US court can sentence me to 3million dollars and that a german court would simply say "ok". Afaik it gets handled under the nations own laws.
Huh. I find it funny that the "innocent sharer" not just shares pdf's with friends, but also a screen name. A guy with the exact same screen name runs Chaos Wasteland, a bittorrent tracker that offers hundreds of pdfs from D&D, Shadowrun, and WoD, amongst others.
But that's just a coincidence, right?
__________________ ~Sky
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Huh. I find it funny that the "innocent sharer" not just shares pdf's with friends, but also a screen name. A guy with the exact same screen name runs Chaos Wasteland, a bittorrent tracker that offers hundreds of pdfs from D&D, Shadowrun, and WoD, amongst others.
But that's just a coincidence, right?
For what it's worth, there's a lot of Professor Cirnos out there who arn't me.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
I'm happy to confess I'm far from an expert in this sort of thing.
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