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I thought the reference was funny. It was inevitable, really...
I don't quite get it. Harry Potter or Discworld's Unseen University?
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Of course it is. Whether or not you want it is the difference between coming up with your own reasons to justify the rarity of arcane schools, and simply rejecting the possibility of such.
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I all ready explained why: I just don't buy it, based on human nature.
It would be like an article that just came out and said, "Wars between humans are rare." It's a declared generalization that I don't accept.
The difference is that we have plenty of real-world evidence about the incidence of wars, and not so much on the vagaries of magic-users. Nothing in
Arcane schools are rarely founded. Those that are, rarely last long. They gain reputation just by surviving their first year.
goes against human nature as we know it. Ppl are selfish. They want to keep their knowledge for themselves, the better to keep ahead of their rivals. They backstab each other when given the opportunity. Or they accidentally open the gates of hell because someone mispelled a word on a scroll. Stuff happens, you know.
Yes, there are also reasons why mages might want to work together. (No doubt they did at least once, which is why the White Lotus school is around.) The degree to which these countervailing forces cancel each other out is not something that is set in stone. You can vary them according to taste, and the type of setting you want to create.
And ultimately, the reason why arcane schools are rare is of lesser importance compared to the fact that they are (assuming you accept this as fact, of course). The paragraph you're talking about is ~1% of the entire article, and should be according proportionate importance. If you don't feel the reasons given are adequate for why arcane schools are rare, you can substitute your own. It won't make any difference to how the school itself plays out in the game.
- They used to be common in the Lost Golden Age Where Lost Empires Go, but they were destroyed when said Golden Age ended
- They attract unwanted attention, so that even if they were founded all the time, only a vanishingly small proportion survive for more than a few years
- The infrastructure of a PoL setting isn't well-developed, so that even if ppl wanted to form a school, it might be difficult to do so
Yes, it's possible to think of reasons why each of these might not work. However, it's always possible to think of reasons why any fictitious supposition doesn't work. At some point, you have to beable to say screw it, roll the dice.
The difference is that we have plenty of real-world evidence about the incidence of wars, and not so much on the vagaries of magic-users.
But we're not talking about the Real World here. If an article just came out and said "Human nations rarely attack eachother", the issue isn't real world history, it's game history. Even if they came up with a reason why this occurs, it's still going to rub some the wrong way because it doesn't feel right.
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And ultimately, the reason why arcane schools are rare is of lesser importance compared to the fact that they are (assuming you accept this as fact, of course).
The "fact" is not a fact until it was just casually stated. It's never been that way before, the assumption has never been that way, and it was just tossed out suddenly and I'm just supposed to accept it without question? The assertion seemed to come out of left field, like declaring that gelatinous cubes are suddenly an endangered species. What?
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The paragraph you're talking about is ~1% of the entire article, and should be according proportionate importance.
Which is why I'm confused the resistance to my simple point that I find the statement odd and I don't buy it. Why do you care that I disagree with the assertion of ~1% of the entire article, a single paragraph of fluff that has no baring on the rest of the article? Why are you fighting me on this?
Simply put, the statement is contrary to my assumptions of a game world. It's not a matter of whether I want them to be rare or not, but I just don't assume that they are. And so the sudden statement that they are confuses me, especially because I just don't think that their rarity is all that likely unless there is an active force preventing it, or that there is a specific campaign reason why this happened (specific empire that fell, economic disparity, etc). Neither of which are universal, nor is an arcane college contrary to a PoL world, so I do not see why they would just toss it out there.
But to just make sudden blanket statement of fact, arcane schools are rare, without any prior indication or precedence, and with it just not feeling that likely to me, I don't accept it.
The "fact" is not a fact until it was just casually stated. It's never been that way before, the assumption has never been that way, and it was just tossed out suddenly and I'm just supposed to accept it without question? The assertion seemed to come out of left field, like declaring that gelatinous cubes are suddenly an endangered species. What?
I don't see how it's so surprising to conclude that arcane schools are supposed to be rare. This is the PoL. EVERY embodiment of civilisation is rare.
(Of course, in practice towns and villages always seem to be conveniently located within hiking distance of dungeons, but that's another matter entirely.)
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Simply put, the statement is contrary to my assumptions of a game world. It's not a matter of whether I want them to be rare or not, but I just don't assume that they are. And so the sudden statement that they are confuses me, especially because I just don't think that their rarity is all that likely unless there is an active force preventing it.
I don't think PoL is supposed to be any kind of long-term equilibrium state. It's quite possible that, given enough time, those points will eventually coalesce and form new states, nations, etc that drive back the darkness. Alternatively, they may get swamped amid the rising tide of barbarism. (Indeed, what the PCs do may be the key to which of these end states transpires.) Therefore, there's no need for an "active force" causing it; it just has to be the state of affairs now, regardless of what happens before or later.
I don't see how it's so surprising to conclude that arcane schools are supposed to be rare. This is the PoL. EVERY embodiment of civilisation is rare.
I don't think that's true. The issue in PoL is not rarity of civilization, just rarity of communication between those points of civilization, and the safety of oneself between those points.
The issue is not the lights themselves, but the darkness between them. The commodities and habits inside isn't really dictated or assumed, but what is assumed is that outside, they're not there, or it's dangerous, or just unknown.
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I don't think PoL is supposed to be any kind of long-term equilibrium state.
I'm not saying equivalency - that they will always be and have always been. But I disagree that they're just always in constant flux so you can't count on anything either.
The assertion that they're fluid like that is an assumption that I'm not willing to make; it's not the way I interpret a PoL.
I don't think that's true. The issue in PoL is not rarity of civilization, just rarity of communication between those points of civilization, and the safety of oneself between those points.
A distinction that will be lost in actual play.
Yes, sure, on the global scale you could have hundreds of millions of ppl living in tens of thousands of towns and villages. This would be roughly the state of humankind as at AD 1. If you had a bigger world than Earth, you could even go to billions. However, from any local perspective, civilisation will still be rare.
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I'm not saying equivalency - that they will always be and have always been. But I disagree that they're just always in constant flux so you can't count on anything either.
The assertion that they're fluid like that is an assumption that I'm not willing to make; it's not the way I interpret a PoL.
I'm not saying PoL must be fluid. I'm saying that PoL being fluid makes the setting much more flexible and conducive to hacking around. You can certainly make any assumptions you like about your setting. However, some assumptions will lead to more work on your part than others.
Rechan- To me it makes a lot of sense really. I'd also argue that military school WOULD be in the same boat.
Things like schools, where people come together for peacefull study require a large existing structure of law, and order with people following the rule of law above the idea of "Might Makes Right."
Like in the current civilized world. We can have schools, because we've basically all banded together as a larger force and decided that the law is a better way to do things. We don't have constant power struggles and such because we've accepted "laws" as a better system then straight force. We elect the mayor of san francisco, rather then th guy with the biggest tank claiming it for his own. Since the country as a whole has overall decided upon following the law, if someone tried to take over san francisco, they'd have to contend with our law enforcement.
In a Points of Light setting, there really isn't a "rule of law." Sure, each small community (the points) would have their own laws and philosophies, but there isn't an overall force setting the law and ensuring peace. It will only exist in one state only as long as someone else with power doesn't come by and take over.
If Joe Darknight decides he wants to come take over Winterhaven, and then does so... Well that's pretty much the end of it. There isn't an overal larger Kingdom of laws to step in and say, he has no right.
An arcane school is a powerful place. It not only has lots of powerful people, but lots of powerful items, lots of treasure, etc... Even if the people inside are strong, it still makes it VERY tempting place for some power hungry person/thing to conquer and make its own or enslave the people inside.
And in a world where might makes right, even the people inside wil be suspicious of eachother (who wants to create their own future enslaver?) or will realize one day THEY are the one with the power to take over.
Like everyone else, I really enjoyed reading this article; it was a great mix of fluff and crunch. Its nice to see some additional support for the artificer, even if I am happy with my current choice of 1st level daily power.
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I found the first three lines of the article really odd:
Arcane schools are rarely founded. Those that are, rarely last long. They gain reputation just by surviving their first year.
In our game, every arcane guild has its own research library where they train aspiring young Wizards. Many starting wizards choose to be associated with a guild, but the guild does expect to be paid back in the form of loyalty and service.
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The fact that these schools are not just places for Wizards, but are open to *all* Arcane users really gets my juices flowing.
Unfortunately, I can't get this out of my head:
Harry gripped the edges of the stool and thought, Not Warlock, not Warlock.
“Not Warlock, eh?” said the small voice. “Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it’s all here in your head, and an Infernal Pact will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that – no? Well, if you’re sure – better be BARD!”
The fact that these schools are not just places for Wizards, but are open to *all* Arcane users really gets my juices flowing.
Unfortunately, I can't get this out of my head:
Harry gripped the edges of the stool and thought, Not Warlock, not Warlock.
“Not Warlock, eh?” said the small voice. “Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it’s all here in your head, and an Infernal Pact will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that – no? Well, if you’re sure – better be BARD!”
I just stole that for a little bit of history for my very own bard.
I very much like this article. I think I might even see about using it as a template for that ancient school ruin mentioned above thread. Great idea.
Yeah, this frakkin' Wormwood guy always seems to come up with all kinds of good ideas. I think I'm gonna name an NPC in my upcoming Bloodlines game after him.
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