Looking for help converting 2e characters to 4e

[Imaginary Number]

Greetings from a long-time lurker and first-time poster. I've been the DM for a group of six players since the mid-1980s. We played a long campaign with characters that were created under the 1e rules and later were converted to 2e. We've recently been running some one-shots under the 4e rules, which we've enjoyed, and the entire group now is interested in converting their old 2e characters to 4e. This has gone pretty smoothly for the most part -- now that the PHB2 is available, all of the players have options for their character concepts that work at least as well if not better than what they had under the 2e rules. We haven't reached consensus on a couple things, however, and I'm interested in any thoughts or advice others might have in those areas.

The first is: at what level do we start? Their 2e characters were in the 9th-10th level range and were on a par with some of the most powerful NPCs in their corner of the campaign world. I've had suggestions to start them out at the high end of the heroic tier (roughly at the same level they were in 2e), at the middle of the paragon tier (roughly 1.5x their 2e level), and at the low end of the epic tier. There is no objectively correct answer, obviously, but I'd like to hear what others would do in the same circumstances.

The second is: what do we do with their magic items? Many of their items have 4e analogs, of course, but most of the characters also had one or two "signature" items (like a staff of power or an intelligent magical sword with various special abilities) that aren't like anything available in the 4e books. Can something like a staff of power be converted within the scope of the 4e magic item rules?

[malraux]

Originally Posted by Imaginary Number

Greetings from a long-time lurker and first-time poster. I've been the DM for a group of six players since the mid-1980s. We played a long campaign with characters that were created under the 1e rules and later were converted to 2e. We've recently been running some one-shots under the 4e rules, which we've enjoyed, and the entire group now is interested in converting their old 2e characters to 4e. This has gone pretty smoothly for the most part -- now that the PHB2 is available, all of the players have options for their character concepts that work at least as well if not better than what they had under the 2e rules. We haven't reached consensus on a couple things, however, and I'm interested in any thoughts or advice others might have in those areas.

The first is: at what level do we start? Their 2e characters were in the 9th-10th level range and were on a par with some of the most powerful NPCs in their corner of the campaign world. I've had suggestions to start them out at the high end of the heroic tier (roughly at the same level they were in 2e), at the middle of the paragon tier (roughly 1.5x their 2e level), and at the low end of the epic tier. There is no objectively correct answer, obviously, but I'd like to hear what others would do in the same circumstances.

I'd go with high heroic, mainly to keep things as simple as possible starting out. In addition, that seems to fit the description of about equal with all the NPCs in their area. In the paragon tier, the NPCs become a bit more alien and distant (ie, more monstrous or coming from another plane, etc). But primarily I'd do that to keep a reasonable handle on the number of powers that you get.

The second is: what do we do with their magic items? Many of their items have 4e analogs, of course, but most of the characters also had one or two "signature" items (like a staff of power or an intelligent magical sword with various special abilities) that aren't like anything available in the 4e books. Can something like a staff of power be converted within the scope of the 4e magic item rules?

Artifacts rules are pretty flexible and can handle the odder stuff. That said, 4e artifacts are meant to be with the party a short time, not constantly. In general, I'd just accept that several magic items aren't going to convert well.

[vagabundo]

Start them out at level 10. It gives them a chance to get used to their powers before taking on the paragon path.

Your description of their influence says high heroic/low paragon to me.

EDIT: On the magic item question, I'd use it as an excuse to stretch your creative muscles. 4e is a dream to design for and a lot of fun. You could search for some similar items and yoink their powers. Their was a (free?) Dragon article on Intelligent items.

There are heroic Artefact's now, and they are easy to "disappear" if you've accidental made them too powerful. They'll usually leave behind a similar - non-arefacty - magic item.

[Spatula]

Starting at high-heroic sounds like a good idea to me. I think that you want to give the players time to adjust to their new abilities before piling on extra stuff like paragon paths.

As for magic items, 4e's magic items rules are what you want them to be. The staff has some bonus to hit & damage and has powers as determined by you - take the spells & abilities of the old staff and translate them into 4e terms. This would probably be something closer to an artifact, power-wise, than a normal item (and I think that in 3e, staves of power were actually minor artifacts).

[Imaginary Number]

My inclination is to start them out at the high heroic level as well. The counterargument (which comes from the player of the cleric/thief and other multiclass characters) is that paragon multiclassing (and the levels required to do it) is necessary for an adequate conversion. Is there a playstyle difference between the heroic and paragon tiers such that lots of experience with the heroic tier powers is required before moving up?

With respect to the magic items, I agree that the rules leave a lot of design room for us to do what we want. My main concern, which I didn't express very artfully, is with game balance. I don't want to give them something that will unbalance encounters, which something like a 4e-style staff of power or staff of the magi may do. I'll see if I can find the Dragon article on intelligent items, and if someone can direct me to a 4e conversion of a staff of power, it would be much appreciated.

[Jack99]

Staff of Magic in 4e doesn't work well, if you want it to be at par with most other items. If you are fine with it (like in previous) editions being much better than everything else, it's quite possible to convert to something that "feels" like the good old SoM.

In case you are interested, here are my notes of my version of it. Borderline artifact, and definitely more powerful than just about any other item, but not gamebreaking. I did spread out the powers a bit, making it gain +'s and more powers as you progress through the tiers. I haven't done the epic part yet, since my players are still only at level 13.

Staff of the Magi 4e (dragon claw holding an orb)
grants +1 ac, can be used as Orb as well

Heroic Tier
+2 item bonus to arcana checks
Enlarge: Daily Power: range 10, medium or smaller ally enlarges (to size large) for the rest of the encounter, gains +1 reach and +5 damage
Hold Portal (ritual) 1/day for free
Light at-will, as wizard cantripl
Protection From Good/Evil: Encounter: Minor, Resist radiant 5 or resist necrotic 5

Paragon Tier
+1 item bonus to defenses and death saves. The Wielder can use only one daily, but may choose any of them. Also, this ability recharges after every milestone. You can also choose to spend an action point to activate a power, but you do not get any other bonuses from your action point.
Invisibility Daily
Knock ritual 1/d at no component cost
Web Daily
Dispel Magic Daily
Fireball Daily
Lightning Bolt Daily
Ice Storm Daily
Wall of Fire Daily
Passwall ritual at no component cost 1/d
Pyrotechnics: Encounter * standard action, implement, fire
Affects fire source within 20 squares. Area burst 4, 3d6+int modifier, and also creates a cloud in the same area, that blocks line of sight until the end of your next turn.

Yeah, the pyrotechnics seems a bit over the top, but so far, it has only been really useful once in 5 levels.

[malraux]

Originally Posted by Imaginary Number

My inclination is to start them out at the high heroic level as well. The counterargument (which comes from the player of the cleric/thief and other multiclass characters) is that paragon multiclassing (and the levels required to do it) is necessary for an adequate conversion. Is there a playstyle difference between the heroic and paragon tiers such that lots of experience with the heroic tier powers is required before moving up?

I haven't quite gotten to paragon yet, so I dunno about exact playstyle differences. That said, I suspect your players don't actually need to be paragon to pull off their character. I'd ask the cleric thief what he's missing if he just takes the MC feat during heroic. Or just takes training in the streetwise and thievery skills? Because one can be a thief/rogue without having the word appear on one's character sheet. Of course, this is a longer, different debate.

[Storminator]

If one of you gets a DDi subscription you can get the Dragon article on Hybrid classes, which should solve your multiclass issues.

PS

[Imaginary Number]

Jack99 -- many thanks for your take on the staff. I think it indeed captures the feel of the original, but I'm not convinced that all those extra dailies wouldn't be gamebreaking, particularly at the level where the PCs are. Maybe limiting the staff to a certain number of uses per day, regardless of which power is invoked, might cure that problem. I'll need to think about that for a bit.

Storminator -- we don't have a DDi subscription, so I'm not well versed in the proposal for hybrid classes. But thanks for the suggestion. This probably is a good excuse to sign up.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Imaginary Number

Jack99 -- many thanks for your take on the staff. I think it indeed captures the feel of the original, but I'm not convinced that all those extra dailies wouldn't be gamebreaking, particularly at the level where the PCs are. Maybe limiting the staff to a certain number of uses per day, regardless of which power is invoked, might cure that problem. I'll need to think about that for a bit.

I think either my last post was too confusing, or you missed something. You can only use 1 daily per day, you just have a whole lot to choose from. Well, aside from the extra daily you gain from getting a milestone, or using an AP, as noted.

Overall (and again, this is only from level 8-13) the wizard who has the staff, has in no way been breaking the game. He has more choices, and slightly more power, but that's about it.

Either way, I am not saying it will work for your group. I designed it with the purpose of being more powerful than normal items, and if you do not want that in your campaign..

Anyway, good luck on converting.

[Spatula]

Originally Posted by Imaginary Number

My inclination is to start them out at the high heroic level as well. The counterargument (which comes from the player of the cleric/thief and other multiclass characters) is that paragon multiclassing (and the levels required to do it) is necessary for an adequate conversion.

I would tend to doubt that, but it's hard to say without knowing a lot more, really. Maybe you can post the 2e details and what the player considers important to the concept over in the 4e rules forum. I would be inclined to simply bend the rules here and there (e.g. allow the player to swap in an at-will attack from the 2nd class), or use the playtest hybrid rules from the recent Dragon article.

Originally Posted by Imaginary Number

With respect to the magic items, I agree that the rules leave a lot of design room for us to do what we want. My main concern, which I didn't express very artfully, is with game balance. I don't want to give them something that will unbalance encounters, which something like a 4e-style staff of power or staff of the magi may do. I'll see if I can find the Dragon article on intelligent items, and if someone can direct me to a 4e conversion of a staff of power, it would be much appreciated.

The staff of power is actually in the PHB I believe, but it's pretty lackluster. But an item with a lot of powers is not inherently overpowered, as there's a limit on the number of item powers one can activate per day. So if the staff had 5 daily spells stored in it - the player could only use 1 per day (+1 per milestone). If it instead had encounter-level spells stored in it, that would be much more powerful, as I don't think there's a limit on that.

[mach1.9pants]

I would be wary of starting at anything but 1st to 3rd, 4E is very different to previous editions and takes a bit of getting used to. However if you have done enough one shots to get a bit of speed on, go ahead.

And yep hybrid classes will make your life a bit easier just remember that they are BETA and they only cover PHB1 classes.

Good luck

[qstor]

Originally Posted by mach1.9pants

I would be wary of starting at anything but 1st to 3rd, 4E is very different to previous editions and takes a bit of getting used to. However if you have done enough one shots to get a bit of speed on, go ahead.

That's one of the things that I really dislike about 4e. How hard it is to convert from other editions. Granted I've been playing LFR RPGA games cause its the 900 pound gorillla now and I don't have a 3e home game. Grumble Grumble anyways good luck

Mike

[Imaginary Number]

Jack99, you were not confusing; my response was. My concern, which I did not express very artfully, was that the versatility granted by access to a vastly expanded suite of daily powers through a magic item in itself might be unbalancing. 4e takes great care to ensure that a single character does not have enough abilities to find an optimal response to any given problem unaided. That seems very sensible to me, and expanding a list of daily powers with a magic item permits a creative player to do a lot more things in a tough situation than a similarly situated player without the same magic item. I think that your suggestion does a nice job of capturing the feel of the original item, however, and I intend to use it. I'll let you know if it causes any significant problems.

To those who suggested that 2e characters are not convertible to 4e, I respectfully disagree. As I mentioned earlier, none of my players had any difficulty finding finding a way to build their character concept under the 4e rules. And in addition they're very pleased that the polearm fighter, for example, is different mechanically than the greatsword fighter. The faceman/skillmonkey who was an oddball thief in 2e actually is better actualized as a 4e bard. The mage who likes to blow things up is still trying to figure out whether a 4e wizard, warlock, or sorcerer would best suit him, but any one of them would be in keeping with his vision. We have a few details to resolve, but none of them will be deal-breakers, and I'm pretty sure the result ultimately will be successful.

[mach1.9pants]

If he is a blaster go sorcerer, I have been a complete Wiz fan.. to the extent of having sorcerer as an NPC only class in one house rule (to give magic powers to monsters). But I love the flavour of the Sor in 4E, and I really rec him as a blaster