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Oh, so a preview for a product that hasn't been released yet and has been mentioned in numerous news updates as coming down the pipeline in the future constitutes a lie. Right.
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I guess printing that an entire suite of D&Di tools will be available at release inside their books, stating so on their website, and telling their distributors as late as a month before the actual release of the books (and not retracting it in ANY meaninful fashion)....
...and then NONE of their suite is available-- isn't a lie?
If they had said "we have plans for...X, Y, and Z. They'll be available sometimes soon..." MAYBE it would just be a misrepresentation or a "twisting" of the truth.
That's not what they said.
They knew, when they said that the tools would be available at launch, that they would NOT be.
You can forgive them for this lie, to be sure. You can say it doesn't matter.
But to say it's not a lie? I don't know how you can say that.
Come on, here.
Last edited by Aberzanzorax; 12th April 2009 at 04:55 AM..
I would say that I do have ethics. I would also say that while the decision to discontinue .pdf distribution is....
LZ, please note that my post wasn't dealing with the ethics or issues of Wizards and their PDFs. I understand that you don't find their actions to be over your ethical line, and I certainly don't begrudge you your opinion. The part of your post I was responding to (and I quoted) was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Zardoz
What I cannot understand is the mentality that has people saying they will no longer support a company for reasons that hvae nothing to do with the price or quality of their product.
For some people, WotC's recent actions are over their ethical line. If you honestly understand that there are valid reasons to avoid buying from a company due to ethical considerations, and your point is that you don't think that the current situation crosses that line for you, then you probably should have just come out and said that. Otherwise there doesn't seem to be a point other than fishing for affirmation and negating the value of other people's opinions on the matter.
Oh, so a preview for a product that hasn't been released yet and has been mentioned in numerous news updates as coming down the pipeline in the future constitutes a lie. Right.
The Virtual Tabletop is vaporware. It will never be released.
On top of that, they said in the books the thing would be available, it wasn't.
One of my faves is the 'you'll be able to get a PDF with your hardcover for the price of a cup of coffee' claim, way back. Given recent decisions, it's even more of a classic than ever.
Oh, then there's the BS, various and sustained, re: the GSL. What a load of dishonest, dishonourable manoeuvring and manipulation.
Pulling the PDFs having anything to do with 'piracy'. Ahahahahaha. . . . oh, that's comedy gold.
If you choose to laugh at it, anyway. Otherwise, it's sad and pathetic. That some people actually swallow that lie, well, that's even more so.
One of my faves is the 'you'll be able to get a PDF with your hardcover for the price of a cup of coffee' claim, way back. Given recent decisions, it's even more of a classic than ever.
Oh, then there's the BS, various and sustained, re: the GSL. What a load of dishonest, dishonourable manoeuvring and manipulation.
Pulling the PDFs having anything to do with 'piracy'. Ahahahahaha. . . . oh, that's comedy gold.
If you choose to laugh at it, anyway. Otherwise, it's sad and pathetic. That some people actually swallow that lie, well, that's even more so.
You know, at first I was angry, but I have a copy of most of the 1E and 2E stuff I wanted, so it ain't too bad for me personally.
In fact, the whole debacle has actually been a good thing for me as it opened me up to explore other game publishers. M&M ios going to be getting a lot of play at my table.
For some people, WotC's recent actions are over their ethical line. If you honestly understand that there are valid reasons to avoid buying from a company due to ethical considerations, and your point is that you don't think that the current situation crosses that line for you, then you probably should have just come out and said that.
I think some people, well, like me for instance, can't see how ethics are involved in this at all.
WotC has decided to stop selling products in a specific format, and they've decided to let certain products go 'out-of-print' (electronically, they can still be purchased through normal out-of-print channels). This is bad for a consumer of those products, but what ethical line has been crossed?
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
I think some people, well, like me for instance, can't see how ethics are involved in this at all.
WotC has decided to stop selling products in a specific format, and they've decided to let certain products go 'out-of-print' (electronically, they can still be purchased through normal out-of-print channels). This is bad if a consumer of those products, but what ethical line has been crossed?
I'd be open to interpreting their rapid timeline for notifying the vendors, notifying customers, and then removing the products as being ethically questionable. I'm not convinced it truly is, but I'd be open to the argument.
But even if the behavior was strictly ethical, I may still be cheesed about poor customer service, dubious strategic decisions, repetitively bad PR, etc.
__________________ Bill D
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But even if the behavior was strictly ethical, I may still be cheesed about poor customer service, dubious strategic decisions, repetitively bad PR, etc.
Oh sure, I think this was a bad business decision, or, at the very least, the poor execution of a business decision. But not unethical.
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
But even if the behavior was strictly ethical, I may still be cheesed about poor customer service, dubious strategic decisions, repetitively bad PR, etc.
This is pretty much how I feel. I don't see anything they have done as truly unethical (the near instantaneous removal of .pdfs from vendors with no warning is a little questionable, but I hesitate to call it unethical), but it's still lousy customer service and chronically bad PR on their part.
Some of us complained that it felt like WotC was "firing us" as fans with the release of 4e, and if we didn't feel that before the sheer volume of customer-unfriendly behavior over the last couple of years certainly made sure my gaming dollars don't go to WotC anymore.
I ultimately didn't make the jump to 4e, so what I had left to do business with WotC over were older edition pdfs.
Their decisions as a company closed that door. When I look at the possibility of re-opening it, either through the DDI or whatever digital delivery option they decide upon, I look at 2 years of horrendous, ham-fisted PR (not analyzing, but usually trashing the game I'd been playing for a number of years), unfinished products, abrupt, inconsiderate, no-notice actions, broken promises (cheap pdfs w/ 4e), and an ever-increasing impersonal bent towards me as a fan.
D&D fans deserve better.
I'm sure some people are not affected by these moves, but I won't deal with that. There are far too many companies making products I want who treat their customers right to deal with that. I'm reminded of a quote from 1776:
John Dickinson: Fortunately, the people maintain a higher regard for their mother country. Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Higher, certainly, than she feels for them. Never was such a valuable possession so stupidly and recklessly managed...
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I'd be a little curious to see how many people don't care as long as WotC provides them a good product at a fair price, and who also actually have a moral/ethical problem with piracy. Why so practical about Wizards, and so incensed at the idea that the "right price" for someone might be free?
No, for me, a company's practices have a HUGE effect on whether or not I'll buy from them, even if those practices don't affect me directly, because sooner or later, they do. It's philosophical for me. If the free market dictates who has the money (and thus the power) in our society, my little contribution to the power of a company will be, as little as possible, to a company that I don't feel I can actually support.
I know everything's compromised and it's impossible to find the ideal I'm looking for, but the journey is more important to me than the destination, anyway. I need to encourage companies to become better.
WotC's recent move is something that I don't feel I can support. It's not quite to the level of some folks, but it's dumb.
Honestly, it's priorities. It's more important to me to behave according to my belief system than it is to get Arcane Power next week. I don't need to buy every book WotC pumps out to have fun playing 4e. Honestly, none of us do. It's a small sacrifice to at least stand for what you believe in, in yourself, even if no one else does it.
If you can't make a small sacrifice like 2-3 weeks for your D&D game, I wonder if you can make the big sacrifices for the big things that some companies do. Do you care what Bayer does as long as your headache is gone? Do you care what the mining companies do in South America and Africa as long as your wedding band is shiny? Do you care about the war profiteers as long as you feel like your county is bombing the right guys?
Maybe I'm being too sensitive about it, and WotC is obviously not in that camp, but the motive is the same. I don't want to be associated with something I don't think is right -- I can't stand here listening to you and your racist friend, so to speak.
If you can't make a small sacrifice like 2-3 weeks for your D&D game, I wonder if you can make the big sacrifices for the big things that some companies do.
Nah, it's entirely possible to not being able to stay off e.g. unhealthy food, or not being able to stop gaming for just a couple of weeks, and still be opposed to the great big evils in the world, and be willing to make sacrifices to protest against those things.
/M
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Before the launch, they openly announced that only the digital magazines would be available at launch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus_Snow
One of my faves is the 'you'll be able to get a PDF with your hardcover for the price of a cup of coffee' claim, way back.
And then they announced that the option they were looking at wasn't viable for what they were doing, and canceled it. Announcing a tentative plan, looking into it, then discounting it isn't a lie.... it's called "a change of plans."
This sense of entitlement that gamers have where any announced tentative plan turns into some kind of promise is ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyxox
The Virtual Tabletop is vaporware. It will never be released.
On top of that, they said in the books the thing would be available, it wasn't.
They lied. You ignored it.
Glad you can see the future. Want to get me the California Super Lotto numbers for Wednesday from your crystal ball?
Software gets delayed all the time. It's been less than a year since the first (overambitious) announced released day. When it get to Duke Nukem Forever periods of delay, I'll worry about it being vaporware. Hell, it hasn't even hit the delay length that every video game I ever worked on hit.
__________________ If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... and take his stuff.
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
You mean like Palladium games? Aren't you a big fan and booster of Palladium games?
I dig some Palladium, sure, and they've been cool with me usually over the years (although admittedly I haven't played any of their stuff much over the past few years). But I also dig Paizo, Rogue Games, Precis Intermedia, Wolfgang's Open Design, companies like that. I've got a pretty wide range of stuff I like.
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Last edited by zacharythefirst; 13th April 2009 at 01:46 PM..
Before the launch, they openly announced that only the digital magazines would be available at launch.
Yes, and NO.
This is the ONLY place that there was any announcement. Many, many people did not read this ONE (1) piece of information. There were (at risk of giving an incorrect number or estimation) oodles of other pieces of information everywhere else, including printing in the books, pamphlets and displays sent to retailers, all of their electronic press, etc. that said it WOULD be ready, and what the components of it would be (things that still aren't out even now).
I frequented the boards at WotC at the time. There was a TON of shock and surprise that Insider was radically incomplete. This was not a case of "you should have been better informed", this was a case of WotC's practices leading to massive misinformation. It was a case of shouting about D&D insider from the rooftops, and then printing one tiny retraction article that was not even entitled as a retraction article.
Note the date on your source, as well....5/7/2008. This was a month before the launch on 6/6/08. Also, they knew this on 5/7/08, but not on 4/30/08? They couldn't have mentioned it then? (In the prior ampersand).
Go check the WotC insider forums on 6/6/08...launch date. You'll see how many people/threads there are wondering where the heck insider (in its full glory) is.
Worst of all...it wasn't until the forum members posted several complaint threads that they added the words "coming soon" to components of insider that didn't yet exist. An example of this: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1043721
If you went to the main page of insider, you saw all of the components listed as if the were live. You could easily sign up (and many did according to their self reports on the forums) without realizing that you weren't getting everything you believed you were paying for.
Last edited by Aberzanzorax; 13th April 2009 at 02:31 PM..
There are many other good games out there published by other companies. Bad business decisions by Wizards will simply mean that these other companies will get more customers while Wizards will lose customers. No one says that a game has to have "D&D" printed on its cover to be a good game or even to feel and play very similarly to whatever edition of D&D you happen to like.
As for me, I left D&D for other games (such as BFRPG and Mongoose Traveller) a few months ago because I found 3E (and the reviews of 4E) to be no longer fitting for my playing style.
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