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Like many others, I'm irked about WotC's PDF decision. Now, let me first say that this isn't another thread about the PDF decision. We've got enough of those. This is about where to go from there. This is about what you're going to do after you accept the fact that Wizards did something you think is pretty uncool.
I can understand the threads about gamers stating distaste with 4th edition and how they no longer wish to support the company because of that. What I cannot understand is the mentality that has people saying they will no longer support a company for reasons that hvae nothing to do with the price or quality of their product.
Corporate policy on copyright with respect to electronic formats is an issue that will affect availability and possibly usability of a product. But given the volume of response, I must say that I would be very surprised if even a 50% +1 majority of those posters are really going to be negatively impacted by the cessation of sales for .pdf products. If it turns out that my unreasarched assumptions on how many people actually purchase .pdf products is that far off, then I will happily retract my astonishment if someone can show me some credible statistics. Otherwise, I will assume that most of this is just the result of people being unhappy with what they see as unwarranted corporate strong arming.
And going onto my point, I must then ask, why does it matter so much, if the corporation is run by s? Until it affects the quality of the product, I do not see a reason to care quite that much.
I understand that many feel very strongly about this. Thats ok. However, I just seriously do not undestand it. So why does it matter?
If I had to see how all my sausages (and other foods) were made it might effect my food choices. I know there are fiction writers who I've liked till they opened their mouth and spoke and then I really didn't like the writer anymore. Same can be said for actors and other high profile people. So, I can understand were people are coming from.
What I cannot understand is the mentality that has people saying they will no longer support a company for reasons that hvae nothing to do with the price or quality of their product.
Same reason some people don't buy products from manufacturers who are known to use child labor in sweatshops. They don't want to support a company that performs in ways that the buyer objects to (even if they like the end product).
(Note: I am not comparing WotC's actions to child labor.)
I couldn't care less. So long as the stuff they make is quality and at a reasonable price, that's it. I don't care if they share with GSL, OGL, MSG, whatever. I also don't care if they have policies on .pdf's, or if they rape older editions/campaign settings. As long as their stuff is new and interesting, they've got my money.
They haven't lost me as a consumer, nor have they caused me to limit my funds (my wife takes care of that job).
Ktulu - Proud Player of 4th edition.
__________________ "..Death greets me warm; Now I will just say goodbye.."
As I said in the 'Weaning off the Sauce' thread, I've let it go. Yes, I'm not happy that I can't buy .pdf files anymore, but don't see any reason to punish myself (not playing or buying D&D) to protest.
Also, I don't see why so much anger is directed at WotC while seemingly less anger is directed toward the pirates that caused this action in the first place.
Where is the outrage against the piracy? It seems like they get a free pass just because they seem unstoppable.
__________________ We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.
--George Bernard Shaw
Last edited by caudor; 11th April 2009 at 05:11 AM..
Forked from: Weaning Off the Sauce
What I cannot understand is the mentality that has people saying they will no longer support a company for reasons that hvae nothing to do with the price or quality of their product.
It's called "ethics". Putting the current disaster aside for a moment, if you honestly don't understand that there is more to consider in life than price and quality, I doubt that someone here can explain it to you.
The only factor that weighs into my decision to buy an RPG book is: "Do I think I will get enough use out of this book to justify its price?" That is it.
If I actually thought that WotC was doing something truly horrible or criminal, I would avoid their products, but I haven't seen anything like that. The only thing they are guilty of are unpopular decisions.
Agreed, lining up WotC as some evil villian, calling a poor marketing decision unethical, or comparing their practices to child sweatshops seems a bit overboard. I'm not going to change my personal preferences simply because WotC's marketing wing is dumb.
That said, the dumber they get, the sooner this product gets to the end of its life cycle. However, I won't have to worry about that in the short term. I can still do what I want - if that's play D&D or something else.
As I said in the 'Weaning off the Sauce' thread, I've let it go. Yes, I'm not happy that I can't buy .pdf files anymore, but don't any reason to punish myself (not playing or buying D&D) to protest.
Also, I don't see why so much anger is directed at WotC while seemly less anger is directed toward the pirates that caused this action in the first place.
Where is the outrage against the piracy? It seems like they get a free pass just because they seem unstoppable.
It's quite simple, really. People are expressing their opinions about Wizards' actions because it's something they can (at least theoretically) effect. Wizards has changed course and can hopefully change course again. Look at, for example, DriveThru dropping DRM.
Raging against the pirates does no good. There isn't even a theoretical chance of having any effect on them, so why bother?
Not at all... until WotC begins clubbing baby seals, exploiting children, or poisoning tracts of land, at which time I'll still enjoy the game, but refrain from purchasing any new materials from them.
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
Same reason some people don't buy products from manufacturers who are known to use child labor in sweatshops. They don't want to support a company that performs in ways that the buyer objects to (even if they like the end product).
(Note: I am not comparing WotC's actions to child labor.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMage
(Note: I am not comparing WotC's actions to child labor.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solodan
Agreed, lining up WotC as some evil villian, calling a poor marketing decision unethical, or comparing their practices to child sweatshops seems a bit overboard. I'm not going to change my personal preferences simply because WotC's marketing wing is dumb.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solodan
...or comparing their practices to child sweatshops seems a bit overboard.
Man, I thought it would take far more then just seven posts.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Raging against the pirates does no good. There isn't even a theoretical chance of having any effect on them, so why bother?
But there is a theoretical chance - better than that, really, as the effects of peer pressure are well documented. If we don't tolerate it, our friends will tend not to, and their friends, and so on.
Well, it would be nice if I could still direct interested parties to WotC's PDFs of out-of-print material.
Instead, I'll go for Goblinoid Games' Labyrinth Lord and Mutant Future, with high-quality free PDFs and spiffy bound books (LL even via game stores). I look forward to the availability of OSRIC in the latter format, and in the meantime will make do with my stock of used AD&D books.
(OSRIC v.2 seems to me too heavy a job to print at home, and I reckon the 4E books are even more so -- so I wonder how much pirates really cut into book sales.)
I thought I was the kind of guy who would say "whatever, they're gonna do what they do despite what I buy/think" but I must be growing up or something. The 'screw-ups' in the past actually affected me a little personally (Dungeon/Dragon cancellation, Dragonlance, smudging ink on books)
So I started looking at non-WoTC stuff, and not only were the company practices oh-so-much better but the quality of the products, IMO, was comparable or often superior.
Now I don't buy WoTC or play 4th. So I guess their policies & practices had the domino effect on me not using their stuff.
I liked my Dungeon and Dragon magazines. They were awesome. Then they went away. Now they're back as part of a horrid electronic-only boondoggle.
I liked using adventures and supplements from Green Ronin, Atlas Games, etc. I liked OGL variants like Mutants & Masterminds, Conan, et al. WotC tried to crush them using anticompetitive language in the first GSL, but has backed down to settle for "no more where that came from!" (Of course the OGL stuff can still flourish outside their grasp, but there can't be that innovation on the current D&D branch.)
I liked buying some things in PDF for easy searchability (Spell Compendium!). Now, I can't.
So yes, if your gaming life was entirely homebrew or totally limited to "whatever one product WotC wants to sell me this month for the current version of D&D only" - all these moves won't affect your gaming. For me, however, it does.
What I cannot understand is the mentality that has people saying they will no longer support a company for reasons that hvae nothing to do with the price or quality of their product.
It does have something to do with the quality of their product, if I can't get a PDF of the rules then the product is worse than one I can. PDFs beat paper copies hands down for many gaming needs (and vice versa!) but unless I get both the product is worse.
I know there are fiction writers who I've liked till they opened their mouth and spoke and then I really didn't like the writer anymore. Same can be said for actors and other high profile people. So, I can understand were people are coming from.
I have the same reaction. There are a handful of authors and actors I just can't stand because of something they've done or said. Ditto for a few 3PP's who I feel crossed certain lines on these boards.
But someone has to do something that really bothers me for it to be much of a factor in my buying decisions. And I try not to judge an entire company by one person's actions - even the owner's.
Given that WotC released less and less relevant-to-my-gaming products over the years, they became less and less relevant to me.
Now that they quite deliberately and calculatedly destroyed a major path to playing vintage D&D, their quite frankly offensive policies matter a great deal to me.
Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
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