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Old 2nd May 2009, 07:32 AM   #181 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by catsclaw227 View Post

You are talking about starting a D&D GMing business, but there is like a 90% response rate that states that they wouldn't pay you, or that it isn't really a viable business. And these people are your target market.

Here's some constructive advice, and not just an attempt to help you see the light:

1. Change your photo on your website. Cut your hair or do something with it, put on a suit and tie or other business attire and have a photographer friend snap a good business photo.

2. Try calling yourself John Tek instead of Johnny Tek (unless your actual full name is Johnny). It positions you better as a professional. I read your blog about why you changed your name. If you are an actor or a writer, then Johnny Tek might be cool, but not as a business consultant.


Good luck at your Meetup tomorrow. I look forward to finding out how your adventure ran, and if you made some cash.

Have some of the players post here. It might give you some credibility.
Most of the posters really aren't my target market, for the gaming part of the business at least. Most of them already have regular games that fit their schedule that they're content with or don't live in NYC or don't have the kind of disposable income required for hiring my services.

1. Yeah, yeah. I know that already. I'm seeing if I can get a new photo taken by a friend or relative.

2. Johnny Tek is my actual full name. The business is ultimately an entertainment service provider. The name is good for that.

I do the meetups for free.

I have stated that I'm starting to collect testimonials with the next session.
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Old 2nd May 2009, 08:29 AM   #182 (permalink)
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@OP: please also consider having your new picture taken against a "flat" background that does not contain visible media, such as the bookshelf present in your current picture. There are several good examples on the meetup.com pages you have joined.

@no one in particular. This just one post in a truly epic tale. It is interesting to note that the responses Mr. Tek received from this community were much more reasoned and polite than those offered in at least part of a similar thread started over at rpgnet, but not nearly as polite as the responses on the Penny Arcade forums, I didn't dig deeply enough into the OOTS forums to determine how that thread panned out. I concede that responses in this thread may have be influenced by those other threads.
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Old 2nd May 2009, 12:47 PM   #183 (permalink)
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I think Commando almost has to do this now just to see for himself whether he can do it. If you don't put your heart into making something quixotic work when you're young, when are you gonna do it? You guys could have talked Steve Jobs into applying at McDonald's.

Was there a link posted to the web site with picture? I realize it's only going to be drowned in mockery but I did want to see for myself. You could PM me with the URL.

Edit: and as long as I'm asking for links I'd like to see the reaction from the polite Penny Arcade people.
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Old 2nd May 2009, 02:54 PM   #184 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by catsclaw227 View Post
I don't recall at any time in my years in Human Resources when D&D was used for team building, but hey, I've been wrong before.
Actually, that part is true. There is a guy here on En World who has posted a lot of stuff about how he stumbled upon being a professional GM, and how he was hired by a company to host D&D games as "team building exercises."

He has a blog about it; it was pretty funny. I was mostly amused by how he put together his game with a Palm Pilot because he thought it would impress them, but when he arrived at the house it was a mansion and he realized they wouldn't even think a Palm Pilot was novel at all.

I'm afraid that unique situation has probably been the impetus for a lot of what we see here.

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Um, has it traditionally been difficult for LFR nuts to power level their characters?
I wasn't implying that it's difficult. I'm just saying that it will be very easy as opposed to easy to legitimately power level with my hired service, made more affordable for this month.
Whoosh.

OK, CC, I'm just going to say this flat-out.

I know it's not difficult for the LFR guys to power level, and I know you weren't implying it. That wasn't my point. I wasn't actually asking the question I asked. I was trying, too subtly I guess, to hint that these guys are currently power leveling for free and I was further implying that therefore there is no market.

So when you pop up and say "now you can power level for cheap!" I suspect all the LFR guys shrug and say, "I'll stick with power leveling for free!" When you say, "My service makes it very easy" I suspect all the LFR guys will say, "No, actually, because you're charging and don't have a home to host us in, your service is more difficult."

I mean really, your market is power gamers? Wouldn't they all have DMs or be DMs themselves?

Sometimes I just want to laugh at all this, but today it just makes me depressed.

Some LFR power gamers hire this guy over & over again so my cynicism can die a little each time. Please?
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Old 2nd May 2009, 03:40 PM   #185 (permalink)
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I mean really, your market is power gamers? Wouldn't they all have DMs or be DMs themselves?
The best customers for the LFR service (as a reminder, there are multiple different services offered, not just LFR) would likely be power levelers with schedules that conflict with the game day(s) on which they could power level or don't want to bother with the organizing process themselves. Also, my service offers greater capacity for power leveling, assuming those gamers want to do it legitimately. Plus, many LFR DMs want to play and level up too.
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Old 2nd May 2009, 04:38 PM   #186 (permalink)
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The best customers for the LFR service (as a reminder, there are multiple different services offered, not just LFR) would likely be power levelers with schedules that conflict with the game day(s) on which they could power level or don't want to bother with the organizing process themselves. Also, my service offers greater capacity for power leveling, assuming those gamers want to do it legitimately. Plus, many LFR DMs want to play and level up too.
If they already are LFR power levelers, isn't it because they already can make the game days on which they could power level?

Listen, I really hope you are successful.

More importantly, though, you should spend at least 1-2 hours on a job hunt or developing other relevant job skills for every 1 hour you spend on this project.
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Old 2nd May 2009, 08:05 PM   #187 (permalink)
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Captain,

After reading your responses, it's pretty clear to me that you have no clue who you're marketing to. You mention businesses and wealthy socialites and LFR power levellers and ... and ... and ...

That's a very dangerous approach to starting a business. You can't possibly hit all of those markets effectively, so you'll squander whatever resources you have ... and your time is your most valuable resource at this point.

I'm starting my own business right now with very little capital, so I know what I'm talking about. I know exactly who my target market is and I know exactly how to reach them on a shoestring budget.

Figure that out and focus on them like a laser. Gear all of your marketing to them.
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Old 2nd May 2009, 08:11 PM   #188 (permalink)
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Old 2nd May 2009, 08:58 PM   #189 (permalink)
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I haven't read this whole thread -- only read most of the first page.

Several years ago, when World's Largest Dungeon came out, I considered buying it for someone if they would run it beginning-to-end for me (and others). I dearly wanted to play a long-term dungeon crawl. (Historically, I've mostly been a DM, and rarely played a character.) I would have done this had timing and people worked out for me.

I would, right now, pay $8/hour for a good (at least decent) DM to run a campaign for my group. There are 5 of us in my group, so a 5-hour game session would cost us $8 each. If this poster lived in my area, and would run a D&D3 game, I would gather my friends together and hire him.

Whether we would continue this more than a one shot would depend on how good a DM he is.

So I see this is a valid option for gaming.

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Old 3rd May 2009, 12:23 AM   #190 (permalink)
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That's actually a pretty good idea, Bullgrit! Who would respond to this ad:

Quote:
Experience a new dungeon from one of Magic's great designers! Professional GM takes you through Monte Cook's new megadungon, Dragon's Delve.

Interested in the new adventure from the author of Return to Temple of Elemental Evil and Ptolus, but don't want to pay the $96 yearly subscription fee? Want to experience his DungeonaDay project but don't want to drop your current campaign or prep two games at once? John Tek, professional GM, brings this campaign to your home. 4th Edition. Custom campaigns also available.
This way you remove uncertainty about the quality of GMing and market "the Monte Cook experience!" instead. You also lower your prep work greatly -- no design, run the same dungeon for multiple groups. You establish right off the bat that you're providing a service other people think is worth paying for -- and you get people thinking they're buying a Monte Cook module (something they've done before) -- not buying an unknown GM.

Any other Enworlders that would be as excited to see this ad as I am? I would jump at the chance to try dungeonaday.com with someone who would keep up with it and run it for me with all the suggested minis. And I think I could sell my group on it much easier than "random paid DM" because they've played RttToEE and 3.5 before.

You would be free riding off Monte Cook's name and reputation and probably ought to pay him for it, but at the scale your business is operating I think he should just be thankful for the exposure and extra subscription.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 02:54 AM   #191 (permalink)
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The Monte Cook thing sounds interesting. I might try that when I can afford it. To save time for now, there are a number of published 4e adventures I intend to adapt or enhance to add to my services. For example, I'm going to be adapting/enhancing Keep on the Shadowfell for a 8-10 hour one-shot.

I just set up a time table for adding services to the business. There's going to be at least 4 days between designing original adventures.

I'll be demoing Delver's Requiem at a Dave Arneson memorial game day next Saturday. I'm going to add a little something to the story to honor him.

Today I rushed through "Heathen" from Dungeon magazine in less than 5 hours at the meetup. I was originally planning to demo Delver's Requiem but I felt it needed more work. I read it on the train to the meetup and had to read it really fast as I ran the game with 7 players at the table. Also, I hadn't slept for over 24 hours and I was very hungry (thank God someone brought cookies). The players seemed to enjoy the session though. Lots of laughs and I helped some beginners learn the game better. My brain hurts.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 09:01 PM   #192 (permalink)
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Hey, Johnny ...

I want to give you a couple more things to consider.

The purpose of marketing is getting the right people (your target market) to know, like, and trust you enough that they will exchange something they value (money) for something they want more (your product ... and yes, services are a product).

I hope you can see every single thing you do (from posting on this forum to introducing yourself to a new person) is a marketing activity. You have to keep this in mind every time you interact with someone (and if you have a negative opinion about something or someone, keep it to yourself).

After playing around with the numbers a little, you have a much better chance of reaching your income goal by hosting Game Days and publishing adventures.

Let's take a look at the Game Days first.

You mention you'd like to make a minimum of $900 per month.

If you can run a Game Day each week and charge $10 per person to play in 2 games per Game Day, you would need 23 people at each Game Day to reach your goal. That would require 4 DMs each week if you run tables of 6 players, or 5 DMs each week if you run tables of 5 players.

I don't spend a lot on entertainment and I'm very frugal with my money, but if you were running a fun event like that in my area, I'd attend at least two and probably all four Game Days every month. It's a great opportunity to meet other people who play a game I really enjoy. It would also give me a chance to enjoy just playing (I DM most of the time).

A great thing is that you already know how to reach your target market through forums such as enWorld and RPG.Net. You could also network with bloggers in your area to get the word out.

Another great thing is that you'd have many repeat customers who would attend multiple Game Days every month. One of the costliest aspects of marketing is acquiring new customers, so selling your product to your existing customers is the real key to making a profit.

Once you've built a relationship with your customer and gained their trust, it's much easier to sell to them again.

Let's take a look at the lifetime value of a Game Day customer. There are most likely three different kinds of customers that you'll run into, so let's look at each of them.

Ideal Customer -- Your Ideal Customer is a player who enjoys playing 4e D&D enough that they'll play every single Game Day. Most likely, they'll have a regular home group and still want to play in another game each week.

Your Ideal Customer will spend $10 each week for 46 weeks a year (assuming a 90% attendance rate since no one is perfect and will miss a few times a year due to illness and other committments). They really enjoy the game and are unlikely to quit playing, so they'll probably stick with you for at least 3 years if you're still running Game Days. So that gives us a Lifetime Value of $1380 for your Ideal Customer ($10 per week X 46 weeks per year X 3 years).

You now know you could spend as much as $1000 to acquire this customer and still make a profit from them by the end of the third year. If you get creative, you won't have to spend very much to reach them with your marketing, which will put a lot of profit in your pocket.

These are the customers you need to learn the most about and focus all of your marketing on. This is the customer all of your marketing needs to speak direcly to. Get inside their head and learn everything you can about them. When you discover one of these guys, offer to take them out to lunch just to pick their brain.


Average Customer -- Your Average Customer is a player who enjoys playing 4e D&D, but they will only attend a couple of Game Days a month.

Your Average Customer will spend $10 each week for 24 weeks a year (assuming a 50% attendance rate). They enjoy the game enough to play on a regular basis, so they'll probably stick with you for at least 1 1/2 years if you're still running Game Days. So that gives us a Lifetime Value of $360 for your Average Customer ($10 per week X 24 weeks per year X 1.5 years).


Casual Customer -- Your Casual Customer will only attend a Game Day once a month. There could be a lot of reasons for this: they may be so busy they can't make it on a regular basis, they may only have a small amount of disposable income, they may only want to play 4e D&D every now and then, or they may only play to see what the larger 4e D&D community is like in the area.

Your Casual Customer will spend $10 each week for 12 weeks a year (assuming they attend one Game Day a month). They'll probably stay with you for a year, so that gives us a Lifetime Value of $120 for your Casual Customer ($10 per week X 12 weeks per year X 1 year).


Drifters -- Drifters are the people who will only attend one Game Day and never come back. No matter how good your product, you'll have your fair share of these. Just accept their money and let them go. These are not your target market, so you shouldn't even worry about them.

A Drifter will spend $10 once and never come back, so that gives us a Lifetime Value of $10 for each Drifter.

Now there is one warning about Drifters. You might have to do a little digging to figure out if a person is really a Drifter, or if they are part of your target market that's dissatisfied.


Take a hard look at the math, Johnny. Now can you see why it's so important to have a clearly defined target market that you can actually reach with your marketing message? An Ideal Customer has a much higher Lifetime Value than any of the other kinds of customers. The more Ideal Customers you can reach and build a relationship with, the more successful you'll be.



If I were running a Game Day like this, I would collect each person's email address when they paid (you have to pay them for this extremely valuable piece of information so offer them a free gift) and email each person after the Game Day for their feedback.

Ask them to rate their experience, to rate their enjoyment of the adventure, to tell you one thing they really enjoyed, to tell you one thing they disliked, and then ask them what they think you could do to make additional Game Days more enjoyable for them. Ask them how many times a week they play 4e D&D. Ask them if they play with a regular home group. Ask them how often they play in public events. Ask them if they buy their 4e D&D products online or at a local game shop (and which one). Ask them what 4e D&D websites they visit and how often.

But don't ask them for their name. You've already got that information from the Game Day event and it's tied to their email address in your database. And asking for someone's name can trigger a defensive response. (And yes, all of this info should be going into your database. You don't have to get fancy, but you've got to find some way to organize this info if you're going to use it. A freeware spreadsheet will work fine for small numbers of customers.)

Near the end of the survey, give them their gift ... a link to a coupon that can be used at any future Game Days they attend. The coupon gives them a +2 bonus to any one attack roll. After they use it, they hand the coupon to the DM.

This gives them a nice little boost once per adventure, but the real secret is that it encourages them to keep updating their info with you after every Game Day. You can even get fancy and code each coupon with a unique code that lets you know who used the coupon and which survey they used the coupon from (just use the link to send them to a webpage that asks for their email address and generate the coupon dynamically by having the digits before a hyphen indicate the customer and the digits after a hyphen indicate the Game Day that survey is for).

End the survey with a reminder of when the next Game Day is and ask them if they want to reserve a seat now since they're going to fill up quickly. You don't have to charge them anything, but people are more likely to attend if they reserve a seat. You'll have a few people who reserve a seat that won't show, but it will be a fairly small number (it's a psychological thing).

Reward the people who reserve a seat by letting them take the first available seats at the Game Day they reserved a seat for. Fill the rest of the seats on a first come, first served basis. If you have too many people and can't find them a seat, apologize and offer to reserve a seat for them at the Game Day next week.

If you really want to be successful, go above and beyond and really wow your customers. Work out deals with local game shops for a discount card for people who attend your Game Days. Or offer to hand out flyers for the game shop in exchange for a $10 off coupon that's randomly given out to one of the players at each table. That works out to roughly $1 per person to advertise to your players if you have a full Game Day. (Show them your info on how many people attend each Game Day then have them divide the wholesale cost of that store credit by the number of people who attend on average to show them the value of the advertising.)


Ok, so let's take a look at selling the adventures you create for your Game Days as PDFs.

Rather than creating artwork most people won't care about, spend your time creating attractive battle maps for your encounters. I use GIMP (a freeware image editing program) and free textures/objects to create really great looking battle maps for the adventures I run at a friend's game shop each week. If you go this route, check the licensing agreement for each texture or object to make sure you can use it in a commercial product without any problems.

I don't have any hard data on the sales of 4e D&D adventures in PDFs from unknown authors, so I'm going to be extremely conservative. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than disappointed.

So let's assume you publish the same 2 adventures you run at the Game Day each week and you sell 1 copy a month of each adventure for the next year. The adventures from the previous month become part of your back catalog.

Our first years gross profits look like this:
Month 1 = $24
Month 2 = $48
Month 3 = $72
Month 4 = $96
Month 5 = $120
Month 6 = $144
Month 7 = $168
Month 8 = $192
Month 9 = $216
Month 10 = $240
Month 11 = $264
Month 12 = $288
Total Gross Profits for the first year = $1872

$1872 isn't bad for just a little more effort than you're already putting out designing the adventures. If you continue this process for several years, you'll start multiplying that income.

I seriously doubt you could publish that many adventures your first year, but just trying will be great practice for your writing career and you're very likely to sell more than 1 copy of each adventure a month. You can probably sell three or four times that just from mentioning the adventure during your weekly survey for the Game Days. And you can quickly multiply those sales through effective marketing.

The best part is that these products will continually produce income for you if they're good. If they're bad, they won't make you a penny. You'll be able to tell how good they are by the reviews you find on the web and the number of customers who demand refunds.

A great marketing tactic would be to provide a couple of adventures as free downloads so people could check out your work and see if they like it. If they like your style, they'll probably pick up a few more adventures from you.

You should also give out free review copies to encourage people to review your adventures on popular websites and blogs. Ask them to notify you when they publish a review and go check it out. Thank them for their review no matter how negative it may seem ... they're actually helping you by showing you what needs work. And if they write a good review, link to it from your sales page for that adventure.

If you really want to get creative, give a free copy away to popular blog authors and ask them to do a joint venture with you if they like your adventure enough to recommend it to their readers. Create a special sales page for this joint venture so you know exactly how much you made from it and split the profits 50/50 with the blog author. It's a good deal for you because you get access to customers you probably wouldn't have reached otherwise and you get to borrow the trust the blog author has built with his readership.

I buy most products based on reviews and personal recommendations from people I trust.


Can you see how you can reach your income goals by just pursuing these two focused activities (running Game Days and publishing the adventures from them)? Can you see the synergy between them and how you're getting paid for the same work more than once?

The great part is that these markets already exist and there are a lot of channels you can use to reach them with your marketing message. Why would you try to sell a roleplaying experience to small businesses and wealthy socialites when you can sell it so much easier to people who already want a roleplaying experience? You're using the same skill set, you're just packaging it as a different product.

The reality is people don't value someone else's time as much as they value a product. So sell them a product they already value (a Game Day, an adventure) and you'll get paid more than you would for your time. Even high dollar service providers use this tactic. It's a perception thing.


Johnny, stop running around like a chicken with his head cut off, wasting your limited resources (time, money, energy), trying to create demand for your services in markets that will very likely never develop and just go where the money and market already is. A small piece of a large pie is worth so much more than a whole pie that you don't even have the recipe for.

If you want to succeed (and I believe you do), then you need to put yourself in the best position for that to happen.

In the end, it comes down to this: Do you want to hold onto your "cool idea" or do you want to make money?

Really think this through, Johnny. Right now, you're just distracting yourself with a bunch of activity and ignoring the things many of us see very clearly. Good luck and let me know if there's anything you want to discuss.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 10:51 PM   #193 (permalink)
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let me comment on the whole "corporate team-building" thing.

From the pro-GM story, that guy lucked out that a team in a company wasa bunch of gamers, and the manager was willing to shell out budget for it.

I work in a big company. Per the latest speech by our CEO last week, we're a top Fortune X company, where X is a number I won't disclose because you really don't need to know where I work. We're big. One of the biggest. When the company says "we change our policy to match the industry" what they really mean is "we found a new way to trim employee expense, and in a month, the rest of the industry will copy us."

We have a few different types of team building. Every few years, my department will pay for the whole 100+ member group to go to some communication or team building course. And very quarter, every department gets $20 a person to spend on a "group activity". Some times we do it as an entire department, sometimes we break it up by teams.

These are usually "go to the adult arcade", or "ride the go-karts" or "go see a movie" or "go eat at a steakhouse then go home early" activities. Hypothetically, it's these activities where an entertainment business lke lasertag can get that money, without extra credentials (other than insurance they carry as a business).

Guess what got cut this year? Quarterly outings. At best, our manager has a "happy hour" at a nearby pub after work where HE pays for a few drinks for each of his 10 employees.

Did I mention we're a top company. If we're cutting back, EVERYBODY else is. And we're still making butt-loads of money. But we'e also tightening the belt.

If you want to start a business, the best ideas are ones where you hear a lot of people saying, "man, if somebody did X, I'd pay for it!"

When times are tough, the smart thing to do for a young person is stay in school. Get a student loan. Go to a CHEAP school (I went to a cheap small school, and got my picked up by said top Fortune company). Don't argue about getting a loan, because the first thing you'll do as a college grad is get a car load for a WORSE interest rate than your student loans. Student loans are a great way to jump start yourself into the economy.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 11:06 PM   #194 (permalink)
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At least "Johnny Tek" is locatable through a search.

Johnny Tek - The NYC Dungeons & Dragons Meetup Group (New York, NY) - Meetup.com

Johnny Tek - National Association of Asian American Professionals (New York, NY) - Meetup.com
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Old 4th May 2009, 03:41 PM   #195 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bullgrit View Post
I haven't read this whole thread -- only read most of the first page.

Several years ago, when World's Largest Dungeon came out, I considered buying it for someone if they would run it beginning-to-end for me (and others). I dearly wanted to play a long-term dungeon crawl. (Historically, I've mostly been a DM, and rarely played a character.) I would have done this had timing and people worked out for me.

I would, right now, pay $8/hour for a good (at least decent) DM to run a campaign for my group. There are 5 of us in my group, so a 5-hour game session would cost us $8 each. If this poster lived in my area, and would run a D&D3 game, I would gather my friends together and hire him.

Whether we would continue this more than a one shot would depend on how good a DM he is.

So I see this is a valid option for gaming.

Bullgrit


So everyone in your group agrees that they'd each pay $8 for a game session?

I need to join your group, because I can't get my players to pay the correct amount for the pizza!
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Old 4th May 2009, 03:48 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Also, just checked the revised site.

I see team-building has gone (probably a GREAT idea!) and the pricing is...

Hey, Bullgrit, how does your group feel about doubling that price? $16 each for a 5-hour session of WLD sound good to your players?
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Old 4th May 2009, 05:03 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuronphaser
So everyone in your group agrees that they'd each pay $8 for a game session?

I need to join your group, because I can't get my players to pay the correct amount for the pizza!
Quote:
Originally Posted by neuronphaser
Hey, Bullgrit, how does your group feel about doubling that price? $16 each for a 5-hour session of WLD sound good to your players?
Hmm. You call me out twice about my willingness to pay someone to DM a game session for my game group. Makes me think you have some issue with my acceptance of such a situation. What’s your problem with it?

I just paid $10 to see a 2-hour movie that left me “meh” -- I was minimally entertained. I consider that a waste of $10. My gamer friends also paid and saw the show (though I don’t know their opinion of it yet). I don’t see a problem with ponying up 8 bucks for 5 hours of fun with my friends (in which we hold half the potential for fun and entertainment).

Hell, I’ll waste more than $8 on a lunch outing today, even though I could just make myself a PB&J sandwich and eat it at my desk.

Bullgrit
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Old 4th May 2009, 06:04 PM   #198 (permalink)
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To the OP:

First, I am sorry for your personal loss.

Second, this may or may not be a viable idea. I tend to think it will be a difficult sell, but someone figured out how to sell bottled water, so anything is possible. My advice, go to your local Chamber of Commerce. Most cities have some kind of retired executive board, LIke SCORE, that can help you with your business plan. Ask for a Business Counseling Session, and try to make at least one appointment a month as you go forward. Where I live, these sessions are free and they try ot find the weaknessess and strengths in your idea.
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Old 4th May 2009, 07:42 PM   #199 (permalink)
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Relax please, guys.
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Old 4th May 2009, 07:57 PM   #200 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullgrit View Post
Hmm. You call me out twice about my willingness to pay someone to DM a game session for my game group. Makes me think you have some issue with my acceptance of such a situation. What’s your problem with it?
Sorry, I definitely came off wrong. I wasn't trying to call you out...I'm really interested to see if there is any kind of market for what CC is proposing.

Apparently there is.

Please don't take offense...I'll reflect more and post less. If there's any issue with my post, feel free to PM me. I really do apologize.
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