General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but something people are always looking for are playtesters. Most designers are limited by where they live, and the schedules of the gamers in their area. They also want feed back from folks outside their regular gaming group. Have you considered expanding the concept to include a playtest for hire. The only hitch here is you would be bringing your players or other gamers into the business to a degree, and I don't know what kind of payment arrangement (if any) they would expect. You could do something like agree to playtest a game over three sessions, for a set price, and then provide the client with a written report critiquing the the system, setting, etc. I don't know how many systems you are familiar with now, but knowing a bunch of different systems pretty well (and having a strong sense of what each achieves) would be important if you went this direction. Sorry to ramble on, but this is definitely an area I think you should consider.
I'm getting a business counceling session tomorrow morning. I hope I can get some good advice.
TODAY'S UPDATE
I'm going to try and create business relationships with other companies and businesses to make this work.
I'm going to be offering promotion and advertisement to game companies in exchange for incentives such as product samples or discount coupons that I can put together as a "gift basket" for clientele.
I'm still waiting for the battlegraphs from Longtooth Studios to arrive but I'll start promoting their product today on the site.
Mongoose Publishing has expressed interest as well.
Local businesses such as chocolate/candy stores/companies and restaurants might bite at this as well.
This could increase the value of my services beyond quality of service and convenience of scheduling.
Following some advice, I've fixed my blog on the site to come off as more professional. I'll try to update my photo tonight.
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I am glad to hear you are moving this forward. Sounds like you are making the right connections.
Definitely keep at the business counseling sessions. They really helped me. They will directly challenge many of your assumptions, but the key is to discover what you don't know through their questioning and then go find the answer.
Sorry, I definitely came off wrong. I wasn't trying to call you out...I'm really interested to see if there is any kind of market for what CC is proposing.
Apparently there is.
Please don't take offense...I'll reflect more and post less. If there's any issue with my post, feel free to PM me. I really do apologize.
OK. All’s cool.
As for there being a market: I’d be surprised if a person couldn’t find a way to make this work. I’m not saying someone could necessarily make a good main income living at DMing, but I can definitely see a sideline income, at least, from something like this.
After all, people make money as clowns or magicians at birthday parties. People make money judging or refereeing sports events. People make money mowing lawns, waiting on tables, and standing around wearing clothes (just saw a “live mannequin” this weekend at my local mall).
I think setting up and running a fun RPG session is work worthy of payment.
After all, people make money as clowns or magicians at birthday parties. People make money judging or refereeing sports events. People make money mowing lawns, waiting on tables, and standing around wearing clothes (just saw a “live mannequin” this weekend at my local mall).
It's become easier to explain what I do to people by comparing it to clowns or magicians thank you very much.
TODAY'S UPDATE
I've shortened standard game sessions to 2 1/2 - 3 hour lengths since I've been told that most potential clients probably can't fit the 4-5 hour length into their schedules. Right now all prices are halved because of the grand opening special ($7, $8.40, or $10.50 a player for a regular session with a normal number of 4 to 6 players). By the time they go back to normal, I may have some really good incentive for continued business. Depending on what sort of business I get this month, maybe I'll reduce the price further.
I've figured out that local businesses are most likely the way to go to creating client benefit packages. Food purveyors in particular. I may be able to get $5 coupons from one gourmet deli in the city and $1 coupons at another. People have to eat so they spend on food anyway. There are other basic necessities or luxuries I can try for as well (chocolate, bath products, barbers/hair salons, etc.). This sort of business partnering could cut the effective cost of my services for most of my potential clients. This may be the key to success.
Video game development teams might be a prime target for my services, probably not for team-building but perhaps for a break away from their computer screens into any place in the cosmos they can imagine. Plus they might see my services as a potential source of inspiration or a good way to brainstorm for their projects.
Delver's Requiem is available for request. I'll be demoing it at the Dave Arneson Memorial at the Compleat Strategist game store. Since It's going to be shorter than 4-5 hours, I'm thinking of a second game I could run at the same table afterwards. A short game that gives a nod to the original Blackmoor.
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So everyone in your group agrees that they'd each pay $8 for a game session?
Quote:
Originally Posted by neuronphaser
Also, just checked the revised site. and the pricing is...Hey, Bullgrit, how does your group feel about doubling that price? $16 each for a 5-hour session of WLD sound good to your players?
Now that apologies and acceptance of said apologies were made...
I think these are still valid questions to help CC gauge his market.
DMs who would like to play are definitely a valid market. But CC's plan involves groups hiring him. Would the rest of your group be willing to go from paying you nothing to paying for another DM to run? (I know where you're coming from here. I could probably convince someone in my group to run an extended one-shot, but not a full campaign. Apparently that's my job :/ )
Also, you mentioned a price point value of $8, would you be willing to double that and still consider this to have value? (I mean I like 89 cent tacos at Taco Bell, but I don't think I'd consider them worth the price if they upped the price to $1.78 a taco.)
I'd pay $8/hour, and I believe my group would agree (again, compare to movie prices). $16 is too much, unless the gaming experience is excellent, beyond what we could normally get playing among ourselves.
The new photo on your site isn't really welcoming. Instead of a head shot, see if you can have someone snap some photos of you while you're GMing. That'd be kind of cool, and will help sell yourself.
One of the reasons I don't think your concept will fly is that it's a tiny market of potential customers who are hard to reach and difficult to sell; you have to create demand instead of having them flock to you, and that's usually the kiss of death. If you're serious about making money through D&D, I'd suggest that instead you write articles for magazines (Kobold Quarterly is a great one) and write many short-short pdfs that you sell for a low cost. Phil Reed did this in 3e incredibly successfully. He ended up with hundreds of pdfs for sale, most just 2-4 pagers that were highly focused, and the aggregate income from his catalog turned out to be a pretty nifty way to earn some cash through his work.
In my opinion, doing that is a far more lucrative use of your time and energy.
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One of the reasons I don't think your concept will fly is that it's a tiny market of potential customers who are hard to reach and difficult to sell; you have to create demand instead of having them flock to you, and that's usually the kiss of death.
This got me thinking... There's another way to market this.
Instead of focusing on gamers as your core customer base (or pehaps in addition to gamers as your core customer base), consider targetting non-gamers.
These are the people who may have heard about D&D and RPGs, and are curious to see what it's actually all about. Offer to a run a short session, with pre-generated characters--not unlike a convention demo game. Keep the adventures straight-forward, and the characters stereotypical. Use simpler rulesets (OD&D or BD&D, maybe). You can play up the "kitch" of the game a little, but don't go too far overboard. You'd want to cultivate a certain amount of gamer-geek atmosphere, because that's what you'd be selling... A couple hours of gamer geekdom for people who aren't ordinarily gamer geeks.
__________________ The Pbartender
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The new photo on your site isn't really welcoming. Instead of a head shot, see if you can have someone snap some photos of you while you're GMing. That'd be kind of cool, and will help sell yourself.
One of the reasons I don't think your concept will fly is that it's a tiny market of potential customers who are hard to reach and difficult to sell; you have to create demand instead of having them flock to you, and that's usually the kiss of death. If you're serious about making money through D&D, I'd suggest that instead you write articles for magazines (Kobold Quarterly is a great one) and write many short-short pdfs that you sell for a low cost. Phil Reed did this in 3e incredibly successfully. He ended up with hundreds of pdfs for sale, most just 2-4 pagers that were highly focused, and the aggregate income from his catalog turned out to be a pretty nifty way to earn some cash through his work.
Actually at a business networking party I met a professional photographer who's willing to trade services.
I passed the test from Reality Deviant Productions. I'm being offered a decent rate (2 cents a word) for a new writer. Once I get established from that I'll try the 2-4 page pdfs as well. By mid 2010, my writing should be in much greater demand.
I really am going to be getting new people into the game. I even give a link to WotC's quick start rules.
Since a new thread chronicling my exploits has been denied, I'll just keep posting updates on this one.
DAVE ARNESON MEMORIAL UPDATE
Today three groups ran games at the Compleat Strategist (the fourth was a no show). It was a decent turnout considering there wasn't a lot of advance notice.
I tested out and demonstrated "Delver's Requiem". I gained a lot of new insight into running the kinds of 1-shots that my writing/design style produces.
I had a big scare when halfway to the game store on the train I noticed that I'd left behind a significant portion of my adventuring notes in my rush. Surprisingly, I was able to reconstruct enough from memory to run the session. There's a big difference at the game table when you're not reading narrative from a script.
The players enjoyed the story and loved the combat. I was told that my story was much deeper than usual fare ( a good thing apparently). My encounter design for combat was likened to the "Legend of Zelda". I was a bit nervous but I managed to tell a good story and I even sang as the story's ghost bard for a particular scene. The diddy I made up was well-received.
I'm feeling more confident about running paid games. I may be able to add new adventures faster than before with the shorter length and the experience I've gained.
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So it's been a couple of weeks now. Have you had a paid session yet, or at the very least an inquiry from someone willing to pay to run a session?
Not yet. I'm still setting up.
It started out with just the LFR the first week, which doesn't have much demand to begin with. No surprise that there's no chomp there.
There's only two adventures currently available, and I haven't gotten the first client benefit yet. Tomorrow I'm headed over to several businesses before checking out a possible job opening for a karaoker mc (the ad was up last week but I can at least sing for a free drink, heh).
The site needs more work. My writing sample to Reality Deviant Publications was good enough to get a request for a 10 page series of encounters so I'm working on that this week as well. Job hunting obviously comes first.
I don't expect any business until I've fixed up the site some more and gained the first benefit for clients. Also, I may have to approach specific clientele to get started but I'm going to wait until after I've put together a few clinet benefits.
It's probably going to be another week or two before I get my first client. There will be some significant add-ons by that point.
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I'd pay $8/hour, and I believe my group would agree (again, compare to movie prices). $16 is too much, unless the gaming experience is excellent, beyond what we could normally get playing among ourselves.
Bullgrit
It's not per hour. It's a flat fee for the whole session.
Right now it's around the equivalent of $3 per player each hour.
The client benefit package should add significant value to the services and reduce the effective drain on a client's budget. Most people who might hire me would probably afford the services easily though. It's not like I'm going to approach people with strained budgets.
I am working to make the gaming experience better than normal. I've been testing out lots of stuff since even before brainstorming for this. Memorization of rules and narrative as well as original artwork visual aids seem to make a profound difference. Deeper storylines and innovative combat design also seem to hit home. Also, the expanding menu of options will be important. The types of adventures I make available may possibly be key in grabbing both gamer and non-gamer clients.
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Ok, you also mention pieces of art you have drawn up for the sessions. Care to post any of them up so we can see what sort of pictures you are planning on showing players?
Olaf the Stout
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Ok, you also mention pieces of art you have drawn up for the sessions. Care to post any of them up so we can see what sort of pictures you are planning on showing players?
Right now one should be able to see a couple of my drawings faintly in the Gaming Materials album on my site's Photos page. I'll need to ink or xerox for better clarity in the photos. I'll post something easier to see later this week.
TODAY'S UPDATE
I've reduced prices one last time. There isn't going to be much profit from running game sessions alone unless multiple sessions on the same day are requested. Publishing the adventures and the professional storytelling, which has more real life support, will contribute most of the profit until the expansion plans are implemented (that's when the real money will come in).
With the May Special making it really cheap to hire for just one session, whatever sessions I run this month will be about establishing regular clientele and gaining recommendations.
If I can nail client discounts for food at restaurants and delis, I will also reduce my own costs for food as well since I also get to use the discounts. I'll be concentrating on client benefits in Manhattan since most of my potential clientele will probably be from or work in that borough and it's pretty much the city center. Bakeries, coffee shops, chocolatiers and candy shops are also on my list, then perhaps the game stores or toy stores.
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It's not per hour. It's a flat fee for the whole session.
Right now it's around the equivalent of $3 per player each hour.
At the time we were polling Bullgrit your flat rates broke out to the equivalent of ~$16/hour per player. It's good to see that they've come down to a much more reasonable rate. At your current rates I would even be willing to give you a try. But you'd still have to provide an AMAZING service to keep me as a recurring customer.
I knew someone who went by the name Mikey Dave who made a profession of being a storyteller.
He did parties telling stories. He wrote a book about storytelling. He recorded a CD of storytelling. He was hired by Renaissance Faire to tell stories on stage. He eventually taught a class at a college on storytelling.
He passed away a few years ago, which was a tremendously sad event for the many people who loved him and his tales.
I think if you expanded into storytelling in general, you can make a career of it.
I'll see if I can dig up more information on my friend's career and his methods of breaking into it and bringing in money through storytelling.
It's hard to see, but I'd say it's competent. If he had a dozen of these (per game) to illustrate the main NPCs and/or structures (at least to get an idea of tactical advantage or layout), I'd consider it valuable. I wouldn't consider it highly valuable, because I think the drawings show him to be merely a passable artist. However, even passable artists are difficult to come by, so it has some small worth.
I've got to remind myself to ink or xerox my penciled stuff before putting up photos of it.
Ah well.
TODAY'S UPDATE
At the RPGA Meetup just a few hours ago, I got running LFR down to a 3 1/2 hour session. The gameplay felt like it went much smoother than last time, which lasted 4 1/2 hours. I've got a better feel for modules now. I think I may change the services to just the ones I've prepared for game days.
It's official. I've got my first client. The request is for a customized World of Darkness adventure with gritty realism, unspeakable horror and zombies.
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I passed the test from Reality Deviant Productions. I'm being offered a decent rate (2 cents a word) for a new writer. Once I get established from that I'll try the 2-4 page pdfs as well. By mid 2010, my writing should be in much greater demand.
AFAIK, 2 cents a word is about the normal (lowest) you can get in this business, unless you are an established name. But I am no expert.
On a side note, I was shocked by those numbers. A full 4e class runs about 12k words. Thats like $360. I do not know how much time a pro writer spends writing a 4e class, but it would have to be insanely quick.
I am glad I do not have to live off this business
Good luck
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Last edited by Jack99; 14th May 2009 at 10:20 AM..
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