General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Whether it's because of a stigma attached to the idea or because recruiting an audience and organizing an event for them is a lot of work they're not interested in doing, I can confirm that most of the gaming creators I contacted with Otherworlds were willing to do pro-GM gigs when asked, but aren't willing to actively pursue setting them up for themselves.
I do not believe there is any stigma, as such, but a short time perusing these boards reveal that people play D&D with many different values of what they consider fun and the same applies to other rpgs. Running a rpg is a fair bit of work, even if you are just running a published module. It is not fun if you and your players are not on the same page. Now, imagine doing it for money.
Also consider, what happens in the event of a rules dispute?
I'll see about adding RPGA game days to the business. I RSVPed for an LFR session this wednesday and hopefully the DM will have a membership application and card waiting for me. The Herald test is supposed to give quicker certification now so I should be able to run RPGA modules soon. Thanks kitsune9.
A reminder that this is on the side while job-hunting. I can cancel or reschedule a hired session if it conflicts with a job interview.
On the WotC forum, it was suggested that I approach old gamers. They might be particularly open to hiring a young person to prep and run games for them while they sit back and drink their coffee. It was also suggested that I add writing for a client's campaign to the service. If a group won't hire me to run games, they might hire me to flesh out their game world.
The more options I can add to the business, the more likely I can get hired for it.
Not every potential group has a game master or have the patience or inclination to just wait for one that fits their schedule to become available. Perhaps for just the one week or month, nobody has the time to prep a session. I might get hired just the one time by a particular group in between game masters or regularly prepped games. There may be enough of this in NYC to at least get me a couple of sessions a week. It's a big community and there are beginners popping up daily. Also, if I can sell my services as a team-building exercise, perhaps I can get a regular session contract with a company.
It's a workable side business if I can network with the right groups. I may be the only one offering a schedule that is so flexible and offering the "full experience" at the same time. Most groups go where the game master is setting up. I'm setting up where ever the group hires me to set up. It's a huge amount of convenience for the potential client.
On the writing thing, I do have a publisher contact at Crown Publishing (a subsidiary of Random House) who may be able to fast track my novel. This was one of the last cool things my father was able to do for me.
I do not believe there is any stigma, as such, but a short time perusing these boards reveal that people play D&D with many different values of what they consider fun and the same applies to other rpgs. Running a rpg is a fair bit of work, even if you are just running a published module. It is not fun if you and your players are not on the same page. Now, imagine doing it for money.
Also consider, what happens in the event of a rules dispute?
The hiring process will include a survey of the client's preferences to help me adapt the session to the group's enjoyment.
I'll have rules errata with me and for anything else I can come up with a semi-plausible solution that the group can accept. I'm actually good at improvising that sort of thing.
For those disputing my ability to act based on the job interview, I couldn't lie to hide wanting a temporary job instead of a long-term job. It would have been dishonest. It's different at the gaming table when everyone knows you're not really the characters you portray. There's a line between performance acting and fraud that I will not cross.
realistically if my group has a choice between spending $75 on a DM for five hours or buying both lunch and 2 hardback gaming books that one of us will use, I know which we would choose.
Yep, that's why you're not the target market. The problem with using RPG forums to reach potential customers is that just about everyone who's reading this would have no problem finding a non-pay-to-play game if they were in NYC. The trick is reaching the people who are so out of the loop that having a gaming experience pre-packaged for them is a service worth paying for, and it's a difficult trick because it's hard to reach people who are that out of it! I certainly never found a good solution to that solution.
On the other hand, Piratecat, you definitely are in the category of creators whose fans would be willing to pay to be part a RPG session you ran - I think this was said earlier in one of these threads, and I heard it from folks I surveyed for Otherworld Excursions as well. If you put together a game plus susequent story-hour writeup, offered it at a time & place where a lot of gamers could do it (e.g. Gen Con), and maybe donated the proceeds to your favorite charity, I think you'd get an enthusiastic response.
__________________ I play and DM old-school D&D with the New York Red Box, play a shaman in a homebrew 4E campaign & write third-party and first-party stuff for that edition, and blog about all of the above at The Mule Abides.
Wow. Between the PDF brouhaha and the revival of Captain Commando... it's like when you get so many great presents that you kind of want to cry tears of joy.
__________________ Still excited about 4th edition!
'If there steady paycheck in it, Krusk rage against anything you say.' - this post
Huh. Tav, I may think about a charity game for GenCon 2010. Interesting idea.
Captain_Commando, I certainly wish you the best, and I hope it works. Nothing would make me happier than for you to prove me wrong.
__________________ - Piratecat, EN World Admin
Currently editing the 4e War of the Burning Sky adventure path. Support EN Publishing, get excellent modules!
On the WotC forum, it was suggested that I approach old gamers. They might be particularly open to hiring a young person to prep and run games for them while they sit back and drink their coffee.
Those guys were so right. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. As an old gamer I have a number of special needs that could be catered to by someone who was spry and motivated:
1. crawling into narrow spaces to retrieve lost dice (d20s don't grow on trees and I can only afford so many on a fixed income)
2. protecting my share of the pizza that we ordered - as a DM I am often easily distracted and short-changed in the process
3. carrying heavy RPG tomes to gaming sessions (this will become more of an issue as 4E ages along with me)
4. looking up rules in the book
5. making sure people aren't cheating on their dice rolls (requires above-average eyesight and reputation for honesty. candidate must bring their own taser)
6. keeping notes on what transpired during the game session. Thorough documentation may include periodic photographs of the battlemat.
7. taking over DMing when I get angry at the players and need a break
8. take over a PC when a player doesn't show up
9. Park the players cars for them when they do show up. Dressing up and parking the car in character would be a bonus.
I'd be able to enjoy my coffee a lot more if I knew this stuff was taken care of.
Huh. Tav, I may think about a charity game for GenCon 2010. Interesting idea.
Captain_Commando, I certainly wish you the best, and I hope it works. Nothing would make me happier than for you to prove me wrong.
If you run a charity game, I'd like to suggest donating to the St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.
Thank you. Considering the extremely rare nature of what I'm doing and the fact that there is indeed precedence (also extremely rare), it might be a toss up. Maybe the old gamers will take pity on a poor young game master.
Even if I only see a trickle of income from this, it's better than nothing. An online writing jobs site was noted by a poster. Maybe I'll be able to get something out of that.
As an old gamer I have a number of special needs that could be catered to by someone who was spry and motivated:
1. crawling into narrow spaces to retrieve lost dice (d20s don't grow on trees and I can only afford so many on a fixed income)
2. protecting my share of the pizza that we ordered - as a DM I am often easily distracted and short-changed in the process
3. carrying heavy RPG tomes to gaming sessions (this will become more of an issue as 4E ages along with me)
4. looking up rules in the book
5. making sure people aren't cheating on their dice rolls (requires above-average eyesight and reputation for honesty. candidate must bring their own taser)
6. keeping notes on what transpired during the game session. Thorough documentation may include periodic photographs of the battlemat.
7. taking over DMing when I get angry at the players and need a break
8. take over a PC when a player doesn't show up
9. Park the players cars for them when they do show up. Dressing up and parking the car in character would be a bonus.
I'd be able to enjoy my coffee a lot more if I knew this stuff was taken care of.
My goodness! A DM/player personal assistant.... Our group would pay a 14yr old $5-$6 an hour to do this for us every 2 weeks. They might earn anywhere from $40-$50 bucks on a Saturday.
And you can recruit young gamers that way!
Edit: I just realized that, without the quote, this looks awful creepy.
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16 (with customized, personalized sig from Monte. Awesomesauce.), Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37 (Another Awesomesauce, the Necromancer way.)
Try to not let failure to use technical language properly get in the way of getting to the real point under discussion. - Umbran
Characters & Games
Books currently in play: Dungeon & Dragon Magazine (*Scales of War AP*), WOTC 4e Core and Supplemental books
Current Campaign: Scales of War - Lost Mines of Karak -- Kodirgo, Minotaur Barbarian 6; Vondal, Dwarf Cleric 6; Karithul, Gnome Bard 6; Marshaun, Elf Druid 6
Last edited by catsclaw227; 14th April 2009 at 04:15 AM..
Reason: Ewwww factor.
Email me your address and I will send you a set of boards to help. Try and promote them at your games, and I will help more if it leads to sales.
Nothing wrong with a dream, where would we be if our founding fathers (Gary and Dave) had not had a dream all those years ago.
Keep looking for a day job, work your butt off, but keep dreaming too.
Thanks. From the pics I saw I'll definitely give them a try.
I'm thinking of ideas on how to further build up a good reputation as a game master. One idea is a DnD tournament. I could design a series of encounters/dungeon levels based on the battle challenge concept I'd been fiddling with. Once I get Herald certification maybe I can get it approved as an RPGA event with the help of other RPGA judges in the area.
I'm not sure I'd want players that had to hire a DM.
I agree - walking into a room full of strangers who drove away their last DM would be a little scary. The set of players I do know are bad enough. It might help to work with some sort of pimp-like person that can collect money and deal with the personality issues that arise.
I agree - walking into a room full of strangers who drove away their last DM would be a little scary. The set of players I do know are bad enough. It might help to work with some sort of pimp-like person that can collect money and deal with the personality issues that arise.
The potential promise of money gives me courage. Anyway, such groups are a minority among those I'm going to be marketing to.
Chaot at RPGnet got my foot in the door with a temp agency. God bless whoever Chaot is.
It's not a 100% guarantee for a job so I'll keep checking job ads and setting up the game mastering business on the side.
I figured out some of the numbers so I'll share this with all the brainstorming contributors. If a temp job doesn't pay enough, having game mastering on the side might add up with the job to meet my requirements. My mother rented out a couple of rooms and my brother is helping a little so I just need to make the difference.
My target is a minimum of $900 a month.
With a somewhat generous estimate, this is the level the business would have to perform at to make ends meet if I didn't have other sources of income. This doesn't include printer ink and paper and other materials that I have in sufficient quantity for the time being.
30-day Metrocard = $81 (unlimited public transportation)
$40 budgeted for food expenses per week x 4 = $160
$40 budgeted for xerox copies and business cards.
20 hours a week x 4 weeks x $15 = $1200
monthly income with regular games only = $959
I'd have a $19 monthly surplus.
If I were to raise it to $20/hour and achieve less hours per week...
15 hours a week x 4 weeks x $20 = $1200
monthly income with regular games only = $959
I'd have a $19 monthly surplus.
Keeping in mind a manhattan movie ticket costs $12 for an average 2 hour film and a broadway ticket commonly sells at $200 for a 3 hour show...
****
IRS Publication 501 (2008)
IF your filing status is...single
AND at the end of 2008 you were...*under 65
THEN file a return if your gross income was at least...**$8,950
***
I won't likely have to file a tax return unless I get a really good advance for my novel. I'll keep records in case that happens. The current average advance for a novel is about $10,000. A particularly marketable novel will have a good chance of getting more.
The $40/wk for 4 weeks comes out to about $5.33 of food per day for 30 days. I can't eat on only $5.33 per day for a full month. Remember, you need to keep your mental acuity up and eating poorly doesn't help.
Did you already consider that you will do about 20 hours of prep for every 20 hours of gaming, if you want this to be professional enough for people to want to pay for?
Also, you show $81 + $160 + $40 = $281 in expenses every month. $1200 - $281 != $959. You may want to check your math.
You will also have some additional expenses that you might not expect or cannot predict. Office supplies, new backpack or carrying device, RPG books or PDFs, laminating, etc. I would build in AT LEAST $30-$40 per month of "Murphy's Law" expenses.
Regarding the publishing advance:
Getting a $10,000 advance to write a book when you have never been professionaly published before is a pipe dream. Ask any professional writer.
Do you have a list of articles/essays/short stories that you have had published professionally?
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16 (with customized, personalized sig from Monte. Awesomesauce.), Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37 (Another Awesomesauce, the Necromancer way.)
Try to not let failure to use technical language properly get in the way of getting to the real point under discussion. - Umbran
Characters & Games
Books currently in play: Dungeon & Dragon Magazine (*Scales of War AP*), WOTC 4e Core and Supplemental books
Current Campaign: Scales of War - Lost Mines of Karak -- Kodirgo, Minotaur Barbarian 6; Vondal, Dwarf Cleric 6; Karithul, Gnome Bard 6; Marshaun, Elf Druid 6
The potential promise of money gives me courage. Anyway, such groups are a minority among those I'm going to be marketing to.
Chaot at RPGnet got my foot in the door with a temp agency. God bless whoever Chaot is.
It's not a 100% guarantee for a job so I'll keep checking job ads and setting up the game mastering business on the side.
I figured out some of the numbers so I'll share this with all the brainstorming contributors. If a temp job doesn't pay enough, having game mastering on the side might add up with the job to meet my requirements. My mother rented out a couple of rooms and my brother is helping a little so I just need to make the difference.
My target is a minimum of $900 a month.
With a somewhat generous estimate, this is the level the business would have to perform at to make ends meet if I didn't have other sources of income. This doesn't include printer ink and paper and other materials that I have in sufficient quantity for the time being.
30-day Metrocard = $81 (unlimited public transportation)
$40 budgeted for food expenses per week x 4 = $160
$40 budgeted for xerox copies and business cards.
20 hours a week x 4 weeks x $15 = $1200
monthly income with regular games only = $959
I'd have a $19 monthly surplus.
If I were to raise it to $20/hour and achieve less hours per week...
15 hours a week x 4 weeks x $20 = $1200
monthly income with regular games only = $959
I'd have a $19 monthly surplus.
Keeping in mind a manhattan movie ticket costs $12 for an average 2 hour film and a broadway ticket commonly sells at $200 for a 3 hour show...
****
IRS Publication 501 (2008)
IF your filing status is...single
AND at the end of 2008 you were...*under 65
THEN file a return if your gross income was at least...**$8,950
***
I won't likely have to file a tax return unless I get a really good advance for my novel. I'll keep records in case that happens. The current average advance for a novel is about $10,000. A particularly marketable novel will have a good chance of getting more.
Do you have a college degree? If you have at least 60 credits you can substitute teach. SInce substitute teaching is the best babysitting job ever you can do your prep work in the classroom as long as you can keep order.
I agree - walking into a room full of strangers who drove away their last DM would be a little scary. The set of players I do know are bad enough. It might help to work with some sort of pimp-like person that can collect money and deal with the personality issues that arise.
It may seem we are making light of this CC, but it is something to consider. People that have trouble finding a group may have been kicked out of other groups for being a "problem player." We've all seen the threads around here. A problem player may feel entitled to stay in the group because he is paying for your services. And the other players may feel cheated because their paid experience is being ruined by said problem player. You really have to consider how you would handle such situations.
I speak from (volunteer) experience. I ran regualr games at my friends hobby shop. His rule was to allow anyone who wanted to play into games run in his club. I met some good friends, but I also encountered more problematic players than I have ever before or since running my game there. These were people whose friends couldn't stand gaming with, so they were forced to find groups elsewhere. It's hard to walk the line between being firm about disruption and the realm of insulting a fellow gamer. I did it for the sake of my friend's store and you'll be forced to do so for the sake of your business.
Here's an open ended question and mind you, I got about three quarters through page one so if it has already been asked and discussed, please just let me know and I'll go back and read it.
What happens if the paying customer doesn't like a particular rules call or outcome that you as GM make?
For example, at a restaurant if I get a poor meal or it hasn't been cooked correctly, or for any reason I find that it is not satisfactory I can ask for a new one or give it back and not pay.
Say while playing my character dies based on the interpretations of the rules you as the GM uphold. What if I say no-way.I ain't paying for this outcome... to 'lose'. What makes it so that people aren't just paying you to stroke their ego and let them sunder the Earth to oblivion and not just leave anytime it looks like the player character(s) are losing?
Yea know what I'm saying? I'm not sure if I'm making myself real clear though now that I'm typing it, I'm sorry. The problem is clear in my head but not translating as well as I'd want it to...
The $40/wk for 4 weeks comes out to about $5.33 of food per day for 30 days. I can't eat on only $5.33 per day for a full month. Remember, you need to keep your mental acuity up and eating poorly doesn't help.
Did you already consider that you will do about 20 hours of prep for every 20 hours of gaming, if you want this to be professional enough for people to want to pay for?
Also, you show $81 + $160 + $40 = $281 in expenses every month. $1200 - $281 != $959. You may want to check your math.
You will also have some additional expenses that you might not expect or cannot predict. Office supplies, new backpack or carrying device, RPG books or PDFs, laminating, etc. I would build in AT LEAST $30-$40 per month of "Murphy's Law" expenses.
Regarding the publishing advance:
Getting a $10,000 advance to write a book when you have never been professionaly published before is a pipe dream. Ask any professional writer.
I have a bunch of bookbags. I can borrow RPG books. I've got leftover office supplies that were my father's. Also, I'm eating off of food stamps at home. When I go out to a session or a job place is when I might have to spend money on food.
The prep percentage of my time will be much less in the long run if the same modules are run repeatedly for different clients.
I noticed where I made a mistake about the advance. 10k is the average advance. 5k to 6k is the average first time advance. It's still enough to keep things stable for 6 months. That is the important thing for me.
As for character death, there will be pregens that can be used as backup and I can let a player spend an action point to survive somehow. I will spin the situation with improvised narrative to keep the players happy. I'm not a tyrant with the rules. It's a storytelling service. I'm there to coordinate and present a story, not haggle with the client. I can make up rules bends that make sense on the fly. Also, on the client survey will be questions about how the client(s) wish to handle character death.
Last edited by Captain_Commando; 15th April 2009 at 04:48 AM..
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