An opinion on PDF's from a new RPG player who has only played for 4 months

[funkytable]

I've posted this elsewhere, but they were dying threads. So I'll post these comments here to get more attention.

To WotC:

I am not someone who's played RPGs for years on end, I've been a customer since January. Not joking, I'm that new. I have no loyalty to DND that allows me to turn a blind eye to business decisions from WotC. I have made every purchase from WotC through PDF's. I have no interest in the DND insider or the Hardcover books.

Therefore, I am no longer a customer of WotC.

I don't understand how losing one of your newest customers who was having a blast with your products is good business sense. I'm so ticked I might leave my gaming group. What's the point if in 3 months they will have a ton of materials I don't have? Why didn't you at least continue business as usual until an alternative ebook program was available?

I will not be your customer until you offer digital copies of what you offer in books on a pay-per-book basis. I will never subscribe to a monthly subscription that will disappear when I have finished, and I will never buy books to take up space in my house.

Let me know when you offer digital books again. Until then, you've lost my dollars.

Not a threat, a fact.

To be concise, here's why:

1. I PBP only. Meeting up with a gaming group for 4 hours does not interest me, mostly because I'm a family man. 15-30 minutes of fun a day is wonderful though. Therefore, I have no interest in having a stack of books at my desk when I could have all appropriate files on my computer.

2. My wife and I do not like clutter. DND books are certainly clutter. We are very careful about the books we purchase because it's gotten to be too many latley.

3. I don't like subscription based services. DNDinsider will go away if I stop paying the money. I'd rather spend my money on ebooks I can keep forever.

Again, I do enjoy RPG gaming. I don't want to leave DND, but I am left without choice if you don't sell the product that suits my style. It will either be switch RPG system/publisher or leave RPG gaming when PHB3 comes out.

Please reconsider your decision.

[Cadfan]

Out of curiousity, why do you have no interest in the DDI? It gives you all of the player, item, and monster information from every published book for 4e. Its a lot cheaper than a pdf collection, or at least it has the potential to be a lot cheaper depending on how much you expect to pay for pdfs in the course of a year. And while it is subscription based, you take everything with you when you cancel your subscription, except for the monsters.

I'm assuming that you're playing 4e, since you mentioned the DDI and that only applies to 4e.

[Jamfke]

As he stated, it's a permanence issue. He wants PDF files that he can store on his computer for reference at any time, without having to log on to DDI to look up something. Why pay X dollars a month when you can pay X dollars one time, and use what you've purchased whenever you like?

[Dice4Hire]

I certainly agree about the impermenance of services like DDI. But I go further and prefer physical books.

To the OP, welcome to D&D and keep enjoying the game with what you have. It is enough.

[catsclaw227]

First, Welcome to Enworld!

Second, Welcome to D&D!

It is sorta off-topic, but I have a question about this comment:

Originally Posted by funkytable

1. I PBP only. Meeting up with a gaming group for 4 hours does not interest me, mostly because I'm a family man. 15-30 minutes of fun a day is wonderful though. Therefore, I have no interest in having a stack of books at my desk when I could have all appropriate files on my computer.

Have you tried face to face gaming yet?

I understand that you area family man. So am I! And there are lots of them here on the boards, so there will be a lot of people you can relate to.

That aside, finding 4 hours to get away once every two weeks to game is REALLY important to my family life. I get a break, I can laugh it up with friends, I can immerse myself in a fun game, and these kinds of "getting away for a few hours" activities are a known and effective theraputic for relationships.

Face to face gaming really is wildly different than PbP gaming, and the entirely different dynamic makes D&D/RPGs play out much differently.

Granted there are good F2F groups and bad F2F groups, as well as good and bad F2F gaming individuals. Getting out there can be crap shoot. When I moved from Cali to NC, I posted on Meetups and went to the local FLGS and got a chance to sit for coffee with a potential gaming buddy (or two) and get a sense for people. I guess I was doing gaming-friend interviews without actually realizing it.

And it worked really well.

I love D&D and if you really like what you are doing now, you should really give it a shot. I am not sure where you live, or if it is even feasible, but I recommend giving it a try.

And you wife might like a break from you once in a while too! (mine sure does.... :P )

[/off-topic]

As for the PDF sales.... it really sucks for me too. I really, really wanted to get Arcane Power and E1 on PDF. Especially E1. They have lost my dollars on this deal too.

[funkytable]

Originally Posted by Cadfan

Out of curiousity, why do you have no interest in the DDI? It gives you all of the player, item, and monster information from every published book for 4e. Its a lot cheaper than a pdf collection, or at least it has the potential to be a lot cheaper depending on how much you expect to pay for pdfs in the course of a year. And while it is subscription based, you take everything with you when you cancel your subscription, except for the monsters.

I'm assuming that you're playing 4e, since you mentioned the DDI and that only applies to 4e.

I've heard you can keep some of it, I will look into this more if something comes out that I'm interested in.

[funkytable]

Originally Posted by Jamfke

As he stated, it's a permanence issue. He wants PDF files that he can store on his computer for reference at any time, without having to log on to DDI to look up something. Why pay X dollars a month when you can pay X dollars one time, and use what you've purchased whenever you like?

yup, that's what I meant.

[funkytable]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

Have you tried face to face gaming yet?

Well, the family man thing is really only a portion of the story. More than that is the fact that I enjoy creative writing. That's what appealed to me so much about the game. It was a good way to have an excuse to do some creative writing on a regular basis.

That being said, that was only my initial interest. I've learned that 90% of the creative writing in DND is highly structured. More specifically, it's combat descriptions, combat descriptions, and more combat descriptions. I'm playing Scepter Tower of Spellgard which is pretty much straight up dungeon delve. Perhaps other games are not so encounter focused? Suggestions please?

But anyway, my favorite times in DND so far is the non combat player interaction. I've made a drawing of another player's character in game who described himself as a halfling dressed like an elephant. The drawing, was a picture of Babar. I've barfed on a guy who thought too highly of his physical appearance. I've belched fire and singed the beard of another guy. That stuff is more fun to me than "He swings his axe and lands it right in his spine. The beast screams out, blahdee blah."

So the F2F thing doesn't sound like as much fun, because that aspect of the game would have to be done on an improv level. You couldn't think about what your PC would do for a bit before typing it up. You can't edit it after you say it. It sounds completley different to me. Plus I am really bad at thinking on my feet, so I would probably constantly think "Oh I should have said that" after I left a session.

All that being said, I do own a copy of Descent, Journeys in the Dark, which is pretty much DND without any story, personalities, or character building. Creating a character involves drawing 4 cards and going shoping. You don't have to pick race/class/feats/powers/stats ect... Not that doing that is bad, but it does take time. Descent gets rid of all that and is pretty much a combat game, which I enjoy quite a bit. I think it works better for F2F stuff. But I digress, I've never played DND face to face.

I live in Colorado Springs.

[Nellisir]

I understand where you're coming from. I don't play online, but my wife would probably prefer that I did. If I'm out of the house for 4 hours, that's 4 more hours she has to watch our daughter - on top of the hours she already spends. And I've already gone through one major book purge (goodbye 2e!) and am now looking down the barrel of another. I shifted to primarily pdf buying a few years ago, with some exceptions.

So, in short, play how you like!

[Thanael]

Originally Posted by funkytable

What's the point if in 3 months they will have a ton of materials I don't have?

Who cares if they have the newest books? You can have lots of fun with the core books or the books you already have. 3E had the same problem with the splatbooks arms race, even more if you consider the many books from 3rd Party Publishers that are made possible through the OGL. The result was that most DMs limit the available sourcebooks for a campaign to a handful.

Again, I do enjoy RPG gaming. I don't want to leave DND, but I am left without choice if you don't sell the product that suits my style. It will either be switch RPG system/publisher or leave RPG gaming when PHB3 comes out.

Why not try one of the older editions of D&D. 3E is OGL which means that the core (SRD) will always be available to you online and there are many many other sources of support. Have you tried Ravenloft yet? RL games tend to favour the story telling aspect over the combats. I've seen some great PbP games for it. Check out the www.fraternityofshadows.com/forums for some examples.

And then there are tons of other RPG systems. (Though i think 3E has the most PbPs available).

In short I see no reason to leave RPG gaming, try out some other systems first!

[Odysseus]

I totatly see where funkytable is coming from.
The only reason I get to play any F2F DnD is the players come to my house. Otherwise it would be online DnD or nothing. And if I was just four months into it, and wizards yanked my source of books, i'd feel pretty miffed.

[funkytable]

Originally Posted by Thanael

Who cares if they have the newest books? You can have lots of fun with the core books or the books you already have. 3E had the same problem with the splatbooks arms race, even more if you consider the many books from 3rd Party Publishers that are made possible through the OGL. The result was that most DMs limit the available sourcebooks for a campaign to a handful.



Why not try one of the older editions of D&D. 3E is OGL which means that the core (SRD) will always be available to you online and there are many many other sources of support. Have you tried Ravenloft yet? RL games tend to favour the story telling aspect over the combats. I've seen some great PbP games for it. Check out the www.fraternityofshadows.com/forums for some examples.

And then there are tons of other RPG systems. (Though i think 3E has the most PbPs available).

In short I see no reason to leave RPG gaming, try out some other systems first!

Thanks for mentioning Ravenloft, I will for sure check that out.

I may try 3e, we'll see.

[ExploderWizard]

Originally Posted by funkytable

But anyway, my favorite times in DND so far is the non combat player interaction.

Yes. This is great stuff. Its even better live.

Originally Posted by funkytable

So the F2F thing doesn't sound like as much fun, because that aspect of the game would have to be done on an improv level. You couldn't think about what your PC would do for a bit before typing it up. You can't edit it after you say it. It sounds completley different to me. Plus I am really bad at thinking on my feet, so I would probably constantly think "Oh I should have said that" after I left a session.

The improv part it what makes the game worth playing for me. Sitting at the table with friends, the dialogue flowing naturally because you can pick up on visual and spoken clues from other players. Those moments when you put your foot in your mouth in a spectacular fashion are moments of gaming GOLD that I wouldn't trade for anything. These shared moments live on in memory way beyond the session and provide great story material for years to come. Its the difference between witnessing a great moment instead of merely reading about it.

I suggest giving FTF games a try before dismissing them. At this point you really don't know what you're missing.

[Krensky]

Originally Posted by funkytable

Well, the family man thing is really only a portion of the story. More than that is the fact that I enjoy creative writing. That's what appealed to me so much about the game. It was a good way to have an excuse to do some creative writing on a regular basis.

That being said, that was only my initial interest. I've learned that 90% of the creative writing in DND is highly structured. More specifically, it's combat descriptions, combat descriptions, and more combat descriptions. I'm playing Scepter Tower of Spellgard which is pretty much straight up dungeon delve. Perhaps other games are not so encounter focused? Suggestions please?

To some degree, this is more a matter of group then system, but I don't think anyone would dispute that some systems are more likely scratch this itch for you then others. However, D&D of any version can be played much more focused on narration and non-combat focused then this.

If creative writing is your thing, I think you may find something by White Wolf, or a narrative focused "Indie" game might be more what you're looking for.

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by funkytable

I've heard you can keep some of it, I will look into this more if something comes out that I'm interested in.

Yeah you can keep any Dungeon/Dragon issues or articles that you download (at least as long as they continue to use a PDF format), and your character builder continues to work, but doesn't download any new information, or even get bug fixes for information it has.

You lose access to the Compendium (meaning no monster info at all), and bonus tools.