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I originally posted this in the House Rules forums. But I am not sure if it is appropriate for those forums. Then again, I am not sure it really belongs in General Discussion either. Mods, if you think it should stay in House Rules, please delete the thread. I certainly don't want to be irritating but I am interested in some feedback.
These are the treasure guidelines I use in my current campaign. I recognize the tactics and styles used here may not work for everyone, but I thought some people might be interested.
While I generally use the treasure parcel guidelines found in the DMG, I found I wanted a little more variety in my treasure hoards. I was always fond of what Gygax had to say about treasure in the 1e DMG:
A pair of exceedingly large, powerful, and ferocious ogres have taken up abode in a chamber at the base of a shaft which gives to the land above. From here they raid the upper lands and dungeon hereabouts. These creatures have accumulated over 2,000 gp in wealth, but it is obviously not in a pair of 1,000 gp gems. Rather, they have gathered an assortment of goods whose combined value is well in excess of two thousand gold nobles (the coin of the realm)
It goes on to describe the hoard; detailing coins, boxes, and other goods. This is how I have always perceived the proverbial D&D treasure hoard. I wanted to bring the 4e treasure parcels a little more in line with experiences in 1e, 2e, and 3e so I decided to split a parcel between multiple items instead of just giving out gold.
Luckily for me, Draconomicon released while I was thinking about the best way to convert my treasure parcels into something more robust. In that book, starting on page 60, a system for dragon hoards was presented. It breaks down treasure parcels into multiple categories (trade goods, art objects, etc.) so that a dragon hoard cannot only seem large, but more diverse as well.
But why should dragons have all the fun? I have taken this system and used it as a guideline for treasure distribution. Not only do I use it in my homebrew adventures but I also convert the treasure from published adventures as well. It works fine in both cases.
As an example, the 10th parcel from the level 5 chart looks like this:
110 gp, or one 100 gp gem + 10 gp, or one potion of healing + 60 gp.
Since this is a 110 gp parcel I can take that total and utilize the guidelines in Draconomicon. Doing so, I get this:
55 gp coins (I usually make a note of where the coins are minted)
A terribly flawed fleck of quartz (worth 11 gp)
A plain silver spoon (worth 5 gp)
Burlap pouch filled with residuum (worth 10 gp)
3 casks of fine ale (worth 6 gp)
2 pounds of darkwood planks (worth 20 gp)
10 pounds of oak planks (worth 1 gp)
2 barrels of grain (worth 2 gp)
Total: 110 gp
Now I didn’t use every category listed in the Draconomicon, and that is okay. My parcels might look different depending on the situation and location. If the adventure takes place in a bandit lair then I might place more trade goods than anything else. An Underdark adventure might see more gems and other exotic items.
Obviously I don’t make these kinds of alterations to magic item parcels. Those parcels remain the same.
This system impacts the players in a number of ways.
First off, it makes the world seem “more real”. These are the kinds of goods you would find all over the realm. You would expect to find these kinds of things in a treasure hoard. Therefore, the treasure parcels become one more tool to help prop up the suspension of disbelief.
It also makes the treasure parcels seem much larger than they actually are. While the parcel above is worth 110 gp, finding it scattered about in the lair of a goblin chieftain creates the sense that the take is more profound. The trade goods might be hidden in a closest, while the silver spoon is on a table covered in food scraps. Finally, the coins, residuum, and crappy gemstone might be located beneath a loose stone in the floor.
In some cases it grants property instead of pure liquid wealth. Characters can become owners of land, ships, and other valuable pieces of property through this system. These are the kinds of things that change campaigns for the good and provide characters with new responsibilities. And, if ownership doesn’t suit the characters, they can always sell their newfound property.
I have also noticed the players treat their wealth much more creatively. They distribute goods to local peasants who might need them. They trade goods for items at local stores, supporting the sense of a barter economy. The players have even used some of the goods and materials as investments in business. And, of course, some of the material is simply sold.
As a note, I don't hide the value of the items from my players, but I do reward them if they decide to take a little time when dealing with these items. Commission sales or haggling can net more than the item is actually worth. Research into markets can provide some returns by selling the item in an area that might need the goods. Deeds to property can provide income over the long term with a little attention. Antique coins might be worth more to the right buyer. Items can be gifted to NPCs who might find them appealing and the PCs could gain something valuable in return, either material or ephemeral.
I suppose, if one was so inclined, you could take all the parcels (that aren’t magic items) for a particular level and total them. Once you have a total you could run it through the dragon hoard “generator”, creating a variety of goods that you could spread throughout an entire series of rooms or dungeon level.
In fact, this is likely how I would handle the treasure in a megadungeon concept for 4e. Eliminate the parcels entirely and sprinkle this diverse wealth throughout a particular level.
Last edited by alleynbard; 25th April 2009 at 01:36 AM..
One thing that you can do is hand out information with your treasure - a gold braclet could have an inscription that's a clue for somewhere else, for example. Something as simple as, "In memorium: Sir Pasil, died fighting trolls in the Fell Swamp".
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
One thing that you can do is hand out information with your treasure - a gold braclet could have an inscription that's a clue for somewhere else, for example. Something as simple as, "In memorium: Sir Pasil, died fighting trolls in the Fell Swamp".
I often do that, though I didn't make a point of it in the post above. For instance, in this last session I described a white clay bowl painted in a style popular in Saltmarsh about 100 years prior. The party dwarf kept it because he found the craftsmanship intriguing.
I always develop backgrounds for the magic items I hand out, even if it is something small.
I don't know if this is what you were talking about - but my point was that you can give the PCs an advantage (if the players are smart enough to catch it!) via treasure. Not just in the typical "+1 to attacks" way, but information that will help them overcome the next challenge.
Or avoid it, as the case may be.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
I needed 500gp worth of stuf and I opened to the 500gp section, looked at item 39 of 100 (just in the 500gp section!) and made a couple of text changes to fit the encounter and viola!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 500gp Table, Item 39
Hemp Sack - Inside a plain hemp sack [1 sp] is a handsome wooden chest [Average lock; chest, 235 gp] about one dwarven forearms length in all dimensions. The chest is set with half a dozen chips of garnet and is highly polished. Fortunately, the small silver key is still sitting in the lock. Opening the chest you immediately see three large books, leatherbound and protected by brass clasps. Each book, when opened, contains six beautiful purple butterflies carefully pinned to each page [3 butterfly albums, 80 gp each]. The butterflies seem to be virtually identical apart from minor variations in size. The albums have dates and times, written in Dwarvish describing the nature of each butterfly's capture. Each has a notation with some numbers and letters [possibly related to an alchemical benefit?] Beneath these albums is a small velvet bag [2 sp] containing gold pieces [15 gp] and a shark’s tooth [3 gp]. There is also a twist of parchment which contains a tiny corked glass bottle with an unknown clear liquid inside [the tears of an eladrin, 7 gp]. [With additional searching, characters discover the chest has a false bottom.] Beneath it is hidden the diary of a nameless young girl [daughter of one of the Dwarves lost] who seems to have had many emotional ups and downs but in general lived an exceptionally uninteresting life [1 gp]. [Total 501.3 gp]
It was awesome, because when the Eladrin failed his third death save (and the game would have sucked to grind to a halt), one of the players ran and poured the tears of the eladrin into his companion, and I gave him another save that he made and then stabilized.
That kind of stuff is everywhere...
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16 (with customized, personalized sig from Monte. Awesomesauce.), Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37 (Another Awesomesauce, the Necromancer way.)
Try to not let failure to use technical language properly get in the way of getting to the real point under discussion. - Umbran
Characters & Games
Books currently in play: Dungeon & Dragon Magazine (*Scales of War AP*), WOTC 4e Core and Supplemental books
Current Campaign: Scales of War - Lost Mines of Karak -- Kodirgo, Minotaur Barbarian 6; Vondal, Dwarf Cleric 6; Karithul, Gnome Bard 6; Marshaun, Elf Druid 6
Tying into the last post, the ability to "create" a wondrous item out of the loot is an interesting idea. Having the PCs be able to basically decide to not sell some item they find interesting can later be rewarded by having some interesting magical property. They could be like mini artifacts where the character is able to build up a concordance with an item to unlock it's magical potential. As the dwarf eats from the bowl he decided to keep, eventually the bowl begins to replenish itself without the dwarf having to fill it, for example.
Tying into the last post, the ability to "create" a wondrous item out of the loot is an interesting idea. Having the PCs be able to basically decide to not sell some item they find interesting can later be rewarded by having some interesting magical property. They could be like mini artifacts where the character is able to build up a concordance with an item to unlock it's magical potential. As the dwarf eats from the bowl he decided to keep, eventually the bowl begins to replenish itself without the dwarf having to fill it, for example.
And then the dwarf's backpack begins to fill up with lukewarm gruel. That's when the fun really begins.
__________________ They call me Doctor Worm. Good morning, how are you? I'm Doctor Worm. I'm interested in things. I'm not a real doctor but I am a real worm. -"Doctor Worm" They Might Be Giants
We watched our friends grow up together, and we saw them as they fell. Some of them fell into heaven, some of them fell into hell. - "A Rainy Night in Soho" The Pogues
I don't know if this is what you were talking about - but my point was that you can give the PCs an advantage (if the players are smart enough to catch it!) via treasure. Not just in the typical "+1 to attacks" way, but information that will help them overcome the next challenge.
Or avoid it, as the case may be.
Ahhh...now I get it. I do it a little. For instance, all of the money found in Keep on the Shadowfell was of recent mintage from the Seven Pillared Hall in Thunderspire. But in that case it was more hook than advantage.
Good idea. I like it. I will need to integrate that in the future. Thanks!
I needed 500gp worth of stuf and I opened to the 500gp section, looked at item 39 of 100 (just in the 500gp section!) and made a couple of text changes to fit the encounter and viola!
It was awesome, because when the Eladrin failed his third death save (and the game would have sucked to grind to a halt), one of the players ran and poured the tears of the eladrin into his companion, and I gave him another save that he made and then stabilized.
That kind of stuff is everywhere...
How do I put this....that is mindbogglingly awesome. I had heard of the book but had never perused it. It is now a must buy for me. Thanks for the suggestion.
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (TDY in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
Posts: 1,546
Adding some spice to 4e treasure parcels
Adding Melange into treasure parcels could have catastrophic affects.
1st: would cause havoc to local economies when the pc's try to sell this extremely valuable commodity.
2nd: the uncrottollable prescient effects that could manifest if anyone actually partakes of the spice......I shudder to think of creating other abominations. Before you know it you have uncontrollable Bene Gesseritts and Kwisatz Haderachs running around, and that never turns out good!
What?... Oh, you mean spicing up 4E treasure parcels by adding more cool stuff? ... That's really what you meant?
Sorry!
My Bad!
Carry On!
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
Tying into the last post, the ability to "create" a wondrous item out of the loot is an interesting idea. Having the PCs be able to basically decide to not sell some item they find interesting can later be rewarded by having some interesting magical property. They could be like mini artifacts where the character is able to build up a concordance with an item to unlock it's magical potential. As the dwarf eats from the bowl he decided to keep, eventually the bowl begins to replenish itself without the dwarf having to fill it, for example.
Interesting. I had always liked the idea of "spontaneous magic items". As something is used, it gains magical power. Perhaps it always had that potential, perhaps the owner is the one imbuing it.
In a 1e campaign, I played with the idea a little. One of my wizards cast detect magic and saw a faint glow of magic coming from a soldier's wedding ring. He loved his wife so dearly that magic coalesced around the object. The item itself was inherently useful, perhaps provided a little protection in combat, but that didn't matter. It was the idea that strong emotions or constant use creates a magic bond.
What you suggest is really cool and just re-kindled my desire to pursue that idea further. Very cool, thank you.
It has been wonderful hearing from you guys. Your suggestions and thoughts really got my mind racing with possibilities. This is why I love ENWorld.
Adding Melange into treasure parcels could have catastrophic affects.
1st: would cause havoc to local economies when the pc's try to sell this extremely valuable commodity.
2nd: the uncrottollable prescient effects that could manifest if anyone actually partakes of the spice......I shudder to think of creating other abominations. Before you know it you have uncontrollable Bene Gesseritts and Kwisatz Haderachs running around, and that never turns out good!
What?... Oh, you mean spicing up 4E treasure parcels by adding more cool stuff? ... That's really what you meant?
Adding Melange into treasure parcels could have catastrophic affects.
You jest, but spices are way underused in treasure troves.
__________________ I have a gaming blog - about D&D4, roguelikes and various gaming
"Rule 2: Give the players opportunities to use their cool abilities, because a neat class ability or spell that doesn't get used isn't fun. For this reason, I tried to cut off PC limbs for months after Velendo got access to regeneration." - Piratecat, Piratecat's Story Hour
You jest, but spices are way underused in treasure troves.
That's true. Spices have always been quite valuable. Even today, with our ability to mass produce, certain "exotic" spices are expensive and difficult to get.
I needed 500gp worth of stuf and I opened to the 500gp section, looked at item 39 of 100 (just in the 500gp section!) and made a couple of text changes to fit the encounter and viola!
It was awesome, because when the Eladrin failed his third death save (and the game would have sucked to grind to a halt), one of the players ran and poured the tears of the eladrin into his companion, and I gave him another save that he made and then stabilized.
That kind of stuff is everywhere...
Great resource. Another good one is the article Crystal Confusion from Dragon 248. This was a 10 page listing of precious and semiprecious stones, what they're typically worth and in what sizes, other names they're known by, what they're commonly used for, what they look like specifically, and what other gemstones they can be confused with. If you get bored with descriptions like "a 1,000 gp ruby" like I do, it is an awesome article.
Unfortunately, since I don't believe you can buy the old Dragons online anywhere, I don't know where you would get it. If it helps, the article was written by Holly Ingraham.
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (TDY in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
Posts: 1,546
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustKim
...Unfortunately, since I don't believe you can buy the old Dragons online anywhere, I don't know where you would get it. If it helps, the article was written by Holly Ingraham.
Well, their are places you can still get them online, but...well, you know...
Anyways...Yeah, that is a pretty cool looking book. I've already added it to my wishlist at RPGNow. It's funny, but now that I'm not looking to buy WotC stuff, I'm finding all kinds of cool goodies I want to spend my money on. Even if you're not playing 4E, that still looks like a very useful book.
edit: P.S. Sorry alleynbard, didn't mean to threadjack with the joke but I'm currently reading Sandworms of Dune, and as soon as I saw "Spice" in the thread title, that's where my mind went to.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
edit: P.S. Sorry alleynbard, didn't mean to threadjack with the joke but I'm currently reading Sandworms of Dune, and as soon as I saw "Spice" in the thread title, that's where my mind went to.
No worries. It really made me laugh. I enjoy cooking so I appreciated the joke.
...I shudder to think of creating other abominations. Before you know it you have uncontrollable Bene Gesseritts and Kwisatz Haderachs running around, and that never turns out good!
... That's really what you meant?
Even if you're not playing 4E, that still looks like a very useful book.
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