On Change, Old School, New School, Same School, and High School.

[Mephistopheles]

Originally Posted by Jack7

Though I reckon I sorta have the opposite problem. The older I get the more people tell me I'm becoming a kid again. If only my body worked that way too.

Keep it up! I guess most people settle, but not everyone does.

At sixty years of age my father was eating healthy, had been off cigarettes for ten years after a thirty-five year habit, was jogging a few kilometres four days a week, swimming a kilometre each day on weekends, ran a local youth group, met with his mates at the local RSL for a beer on Friday afternoons, and would often hover around watching the proceedings when my friends and I were gaming, looking like he wanted to take a seat at the table but always refusing to roll up a character whenever we would suggest it.

As I said when I delivered his eulogy, he was one of those people who gave up looking for the light at the end of the tunnel and carried his own torch instead.

[rounser]

I've felt a sense of renewal with 4E.

Given the rush of interest in the retroclone movement and how hard reasonably priced rules cyclopedias are becoming to find, I think it's also made people stop and see past works in a new light.

It's certainly interesting to look at Dungeon and Dragon magazines in terms of "this is the full run that will ever be made." The pre-4E FR is now complete, as is Greyhawk and Mystara. It's empowering in some ways.

[Keefe the Thief]

For a 35-year-old that found that 4e was pretty much the "Wocts-brainreading-rays-have-copied-all-my-wishes!"-RPG, that was a very interesting read, Joethelawyer. I fully understand what you mean: a new edition always means rules change AND style change to boot, and sooner or later you´ll simply go "why bother?"

However, i admit, at the end of your post i would have expected a "and now i´m leaving for Dragonsfoot, where real D&D is still appreciated."

I hope this doesn´t sound negative, but your post also shows me that 4e did something right: a RPG has to change not only rules but also its look & feel to stay current. Your rejection of 4e (and other similar posts) show me that 4e was much more successful in finding its own identity than 3e. Honestly, especially regarding to philosophy, 3e tried far too often to eat its cake and keep it, too: simulate older editions while grafting new ideas on.

Note: no edition war intended, lets all get along.

[exile]

As a general surgeon, fresh out of training (well alost two years out now) and newly moved back to small town Kentucky where I was born and raised, I can certainly empathize with the original poster.

The difference comes in that I am playing and enjoying 4E (in addition to 3.5/Pathfinder). I think some of the difference might come form the fact that...

1.) Where I am located, 4E is simply more available than older editions.
2.) After about two early bad experiences with 4E, I kept playing and it kept getting better. At first, I thought it inferior two 3.X, then I went around saying that the two actually played quiet similarly (3.X just read better), now I think 4E might be a little bit superior in terms of playability. I still cling to 3.X being better for world-building.
3.) Five plus years of my life were consumed by surgical training. These were five years when 3.5 were going strong. I played some certainly, but did not really get to participate in any sort of organized play (RPGA/LC/LG/LFR) like I love, and I played some other RPGs, but mostly I learned to operate and to take care of surgical patients. I missed five years of movies, television, new cars, learning things about my new wife, etc. It was almost like going to prison (without the soap on a rope) or war (without the bullets), but there was a lot of denial of luxuries and being yelled at. The end result is that though I am 32, I kind of feel like those years don't count toward any sort of socio-emotional development, and I'm still really only 27.

I'm rambling now. I'm sorry. I was up too late last night playing 4E Living Forgotten Realms and dreaming up new characters.

Chad

[joethelawyer]

Originally Posted by Jack99

You have said that a million times on these boards - and every time I read it, I silent nod my head over here, on my side of the pond (and the computer). This is pretty much what I wish I had done instead of playing 3.x by the book.

However, and I might just be missing a point here, if that is indeed how you want to play, why on earth are you switching to Pathfinder? Pathfinder seems to be even less oldschool than 3.0/3.5.

We'll probably just slap our houserules on the Pathfinder base game. I like what I've seen in beta regarding some of the spells, in terms of simplifying and rebalancing them. The players like what they have done in terms of core classes. Especially some of the feats. We won't be playing PF by the book though.

One thing we all love about Pathfinder is Paizo and the folks that work there. It's a company run and owned by gamers and geeks, in the best sense of the words. I trust them, and I like what they have done with the Beta test of Pathfinder. I trust the internal rebalancing of the game mechanics and components, even though I haven't seen the final product yet. It's a company I WANT to support.

And I like their energy. Have you ever seen their posts on the Paizo boards? All the main players in the company are always posting responses to questions big and small. Lisa Stevens get on there and deals with order issues. Erik Mona gets on there and chews the fat with fans about pulp fiction. Reading Lisa Stevens posts you get a sense of her excitement and energy. I've never met her, but by her posts I would bet she is an enthusiastic person who loves her life and what she does every day. All that carries over to her employees and their products. I would love to hang out there for a day. Hell, if I had any creative talent, I'd love to work there.

[PeelSeel2]

I'm 39 (now)and have been told by my that I am her 4th child. She has never been a gamer, never will be. It strains her every friday night game night at our house. 8-15 18-38 year old's (1/2 men, 1/2 women) running around the basement, playing D&D, Catan, Risk, whatever. Starting 5-8pm going until 1-4 am. Then their are grilling game nights too....

Everyone loves 4e. I also love Basic&Expert D&D circa 1982. My Mullet.

Speaking of Mullets, I never have liked them (never had one either). But I have shaved my head for a LONG time now (15+ years), and I saw mullet wigs online. I had to laugh picturing myself in one with a soiled wife-beater on and some greasy jeans. I have never dressed up for Halloween since being an 'adult', but I may have to get that costume for the coming one. Fun.

[Jack7]

As I said when I delivered his eulogy, he was one of those people who gave up looking for the light at the end of the tunnel and carried his own torch instead.

I like the way you said that.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by joethelawyer

We'll probably just slap our houserules on the Pathfinder base game. I like what I've seen in beta regarding some of the spells, in terms of simplifying and rebalancing them. The players like what they have done in terms of core classes. Especially some of the feats. We won't be playing PF by the book though.

One thing we all love about Pathfinder is Paizo and the folks that work there. It's a company run and owned by gamers and geeks, in the best sense of the words. I trust them, and I like what they have done with the Beta test of Pathfinder. I trust the internal rebalancing of the game mechanics and components, even though I haven't seen the final product yet. It's a company I WANT to support.

Fair enough. Makes a lot more sense to me now. And yes, I like Paizo and their employees a lot. Despite being a huge 4e-fanboi, I still buy a lot of Paizo products, because 1) they make great fluff 2) I like the company.

Cheers

[jensun]

Originally Posted by LostSoul

Me too. Well, I'm 32.

On topic: I've felt a sense of renewal with 4E.

My group of mid to late thirty somethings agrees wholeheartedly with you.

Life is too short to play games you dont enjoy.

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I honestly don't think how I feel about 4E has much at all to do with how much older I am - I just don't like it anyway. How I feel about 3E DOES have some to do with how much older I am. While I LIKED it, 3E still played differently than the D&D I played when I was younger so I prefer to have a version like 1E or 2E.

[Herobizkit]

I have recently turned 33, and I also feel like I've gotten buried by the mundane and the ordinary. I feel like 1993 was the best year of my life - the year I graduated high school. I know I drifted through my 20's, spending half of them with a woman I shouldn't have. I don't have my own place, own car, single, never married, no kids... in many ways, I feel like I'm no better off than I was back in high school!

I know that's not strictly the case, but this attitude has affected all branches of my life... mental, physical, spiritual, emotional... and very little makes me smile these days. My roommate and I got to chatting about picking up an old 3.x campaign that we dropped halfway through about a year ago. While it was fun to reminisce, the idea of playing high-level (10-20) 3.x seems incredibly daunting to me, especially since I helped complicate things by having all the main protagonists as gestalt characters. It may be fun, but I can't help but feel I should be doing "something" with my time instead of gaming, but am at a loss as to exactly what.

I'm in the process of trying to grow as a person... but to quote (if you can believe it) a Miley Cyrus song:

"Ain't about how fast I get there, ain't about what's waiting on the other side... it's the climb."

[Mercurius]

Originally Posted by joethelawyer

I thought I'd respond to your other section in a separate post. ...SNIP

Yes, yes, yes! We are on a very similar page here. Not much to add but just to affirm what you say. And I love the Lieber quote which nicely integrates wondrous grandeur and, as you say, a recognition of life's absurdity. Comitragedy, really.

[joethelawyer]

Originally Posted by Herobizkit

I have recently turned 33, and I also feel like I've gotten buried by the mundane and the ordinary. I feel like 1993 was the best year of my life - the year I graduated high school. I know I drifted through my 20's, spending half of them with a woman I shouldn't have. I don't have my own place, own car, single, never married, no kids... in many ways, I feel like I'm no better off than I was back in high school!

I know that's not strictly the case, but this attitude has affected all branches of my life... mental, physical, spiritual, emotional... and very little makes me smile these days. My roommate and I got to chatting about picking up an old 3.x campaign that we dropped halfway through about a year ago. While it was fun to reminisce, the idea of playing high-level (10-20) 3.x seems incredibly daunting to me, especially since I helped complicate things by having all the main protagonists as gestalt characters. It may be fun, but I can't help but feel I should be doing "something" with my time instead of gaming, but am at a loss as to exactly what.

Count me among the mid-30's who feels like the best years of his life are over.

Your life is yours to create, man. I've been broke then had money several times so far. I've lived the wild life, and also had to dig through the couch cushions for enough money to buy food. I've had a lot of "stuff", enough for a 2 bedroom house, then sold and gave it all away and slept happily on a rug in a tiny studio apartment, where the sum total of all I owned fit in the trunk of my car.

It's not about the stuff. It's not about measuring yourself against everyone else. It's not about settling down into the life everyone expected you to live----and then adopting that expectation and being disappointed that you didn't get that life for yourself.

It IS about, at the end, on your dying day, is looking back and saying "I've lived a good life. I've enjoyed it."

Since we never know when we are going to die, we have to strive to make every day the best it can be.

I think it all starts with knowing who you are, accepting yourself, your past, the highs and lows, mistakes and accomplishments, and moving forward with what you learned so far. Wherever you focus your thoughts will be what your life is all about. If you focus on and dwell in the disappointments of the past, the future will be the same. If you IMAGINE a new future, one with all the happiness you desire, it WILL happen. You just have to follow your gut, take chances, and live with the courage that comes from knowing that this day may be the last day I have here, and who knows if there is an afterlife, therefore I want to get the most I can out of today, and work towards making the future even better for myself and those I love.

That's all there is man. Redirect your mind. Change your focus. Envision and imagine, believe, and it will all come to be.

[Jack7]

Your life is yours to create, man.

I'll kinda second that HB. In my own way.

When I as a kid and on into my twenties I never expected to live past thirty. (I did, and was involved in some dangerous things, not so much hell-raising - as just plain dangerous. I've always liked dangerous in both my work and my play.) So when I woke up alive on my thirtieth birthday I said to myself, "Well, hell, if I'm gonna live this long I guess I'd better do some things I had never intended to do."

So I got married, had kids (including daughters who I never thought I'd ever have anything in common with, but now I can't imagine life without em), started different careers (different from the ones I had in my earlier years), had a business crash and nearly drive me into bankruptcy - had others that have been very successful, bought the old family estate, and so forth and so on. I never thought I'd ever get married, have kids, couldn't imagine buying the old family estate, and so forth and so on.

If somebody had told me twenty years ago, or even ten years ago, of the things I'd do, be involved in, or what-not I'd have said, "Mister you're either a fool or a nut, or both." Yet I did, and I have. Not that I'm saying I've had some outstanding life, just a very surprising and fun one. And dangerous and adventurous. And that's just about the way I like it.

You just never know what will happen when you give up on the idea that you have to know in advance what is or is not possible. Inside everyone I suspect happen to be a lot of untapped things. You can get in the way of that, or get out of the way of that. But either way it's up to you.

So, Godspeed.
And Happy Hunting.

[Mercurius]

Originally Posted by rounser

Given the rush of interest in the retroclone movement and how hard reasonably priced rules cyclopedias are becoming to find, I think it's also made people stop and see past works in a new light.

It's certainly interesting to look at Dungeon and Dragon magazines in terms of "this is the full run that will ever be made." The pre-4E FR is now complete, as is Greyhawk and Mystara. It's empowering in some ways.

Interesting. Care to explicate further? What I hear you pointing at is the fact that because FR, Greyhawk, Mystara etc are "done" they are related to differently; they are artifacts, not living organisms...at least in terms of published material. What are the implications of this?

Now what I hope WotC doesn't do with 4E is simply re-boot everything. What is it about re-booting, anyways? Sometimes it seems that all the fresh modern media ideas came out in the 60s and 70s and everything since has been a re-envisioning, re-booting, re-cycling. Even the plethora of TSR campaign settings in the 90s seemed to harken back to scifi and fantasy of the 70s, or at least be hybrids of various elements from that era.

Certainly I exagerrate as we've had the Matrix. And sometimes re-booting delivers a better product that the original (Battlestar Galactica, arguably Daniel Craig as Bond), although just as often it loses its original vitality (Rollerball, Planet of the Apes, Stars Wars episodes 1-3, later Star Trek shows). But it seems that we, whether as a species or as a culture, are having difficulty manifesting creative intelligence in a fresh way...everything is a clone, or a retro-clone, a re-make, a re-this-or-that, or simply an old novel or comic brought to the screen. Battlestar Galactica comes to mind, or Star Trek, or the many comic book movies...why can't "they" think of something new? A whole new science fiction franchise?

We had Forgotten Realms 4ed last year and this year we'll have Eberron. Next year? Is it going to be the most likely past campaign for 4ed treatment, Dark Sun, or something new? Dark Sun was a great setting, as was Planescape, Spelljammer, etc. But what about something new?

[Hereticus]

When I was in college (early 80s), I played D&D, was in a band (for beer money and to meet chicks), and played just about every sport intramurally. Yeah my grades suffered for all of my diverse activities, but I graduated.

After I graduated one of my friends bought a house. Friday night and one other night during the week was for D&D, Saturday night was for clubbing, and there was also sports on weekends and evenings. I had no interest in grad school like some of the people I knew from work.

After I got married and had three kids, the clubbing ended, and D&D and (my) sports became more sporadic. I switched from D&D to White Wolf (mostly Dark Ages) because I loved history.

For the past five years I've played 3.5E, with some old friends on line, and some new friends at various homes. I don't like playing in game stores, but will do so in running Delve Nights. The best place to game is outside around a campfire with lots of beer.

One thing I've learned from 20+ years of professional work is never to complain about something unless you have facts (strong opinions in the case of D&D) to back you up, and a solution. I've complained about some things in fourth edition all I care to complain, and have offered some solutions.

Now I've decided that I will change over to 4.0E, and my online group is thinking of doing that too. Now that my Eladrin Wizard had hit 12th level, he can now do most of the things I want a spell caster to do. In fact after spending most of the hero tier as weaker than the martials, I now think I've created a better build.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Hereticus

I switched from D&D to White Wolf (mostly Dark Ages) because I loved history.

Can you expand on this?

[Hereticus]

I switched from D&D to White Wolf (mostly Dark Ages) because I loved history.

Originally Posted by Mark

Can you expand on this?

We started in Constantinople, and played out that story until the fall of the city in 2004. At one point our game had 13 players plus a ST and two assistants. Afterward we went through the entire Transylvania Chronicles.

One player was a church deacon, and most of us including the DM were very well read on history and religion. The DM kept most of real world history accurate (but not exact). We started Transylvania in 1204 instead of 1198. Between the stories in the books, we played out many actual events.

I played a Lasombra who never thought the Camarilla (ka-ma-re-ya) would last, or the Sabbat. Here is the speech one of my progeny gave at the founding of the Camarilla:

On the fourth night, many in attendance were given the opportunity to speak. Playing to our chosen audience, Sofia gave a rousing speech. “Many of our childer have taken the gift that we have so graciously given them, then tried to destroy us to satisfy their lust for power. I say no compromise, show them the sunrise! The traitors of Clans Lasombra and Tzimisce must pay for their unholy acts! As for Clan Assamite and their unholy acts of diablerie, they must conform to the rule of law or perish. In their quest to diableriuze God, the Cappadocians have signed their own death warrant. But the Giovanni are the Devil. I admire and respect the seven prominent Cainites who have been chosen to serve as Justicars for this great society. Long live the Camarilla!”

I could hardly contain my laughter at her (our) ridiculous comments, and how much she sounded just like Hardestadt. But I was surprised at how many Cainites congratulated Sofia on her great speech. Next, Rafael, the pretty boy Toreador pleaded with us to maintain the Masquerade that allowed the elders to exist in secret. That fool just invited the Anarchs to destroy the Masquerade as a tactic in their struggle.

Also IRL I had spent time in Hungary, and had visited many of the cities in the chronicles.

[Mark]

Thanks. I forked this discussion off to a new thread. I hope you do not mind.

Forked: (On Change, Old School, . . .) Historical Fiction in Gaming

[Hereticus]

[Post moved to the forked thread.]