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I hope this doesn´t sound negative, but your post also shows me that 4e did something right: a RPG has to change not only rules but also its look & feel to stay current. Your rejection of 4e (and other similar posts) show me that 4e was much more successful in finding its own identity than 3e. Honestly, especially regarding to philosophy, 3e tried far too often to eat its cake and keep it, too: simulate older editions while grafting new ideas on.
Note: no edition war intended, lets all get along.
See, my take on the 4e change is a very different one. For me, 1 -> 2 -> 3/3.5 is aging and maturing along with me. 4e is the midlife crisis. The game's out driving a Miata, divorcing his old wife for a trophy, and trying to be someone it isn't. 3e may play a bit differently from my old 1e or even 2e days, but it's a heck of a lot closer than my 4e experience.
__________________ Bill D
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- Doctor Impossible
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
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Certainly I exagerrate as we've had the Matrix. And sometimes re-booting delivers a better product that the original (Battlestar Galactica, arguably Daniel Craig as Bond), although just as often it loses its original vitality (Rollerball, Planet of the Apes, Stars Wars episodes 1-3, later Star Trek shows). But it seems that we, whether as a species or as a culture, are having difficulty manifesting creative intelligence in a fresh way...everything is a clone, or a retro-clone, a re-make, a re-this-or-that, or simply an old novel or comic brought to the screen. Battlestar Galactica comes to mind, or Star Trek, or the many comic book movies...why can't "they" think of something new? A whole new science fiction franchise?
Because the dark and gritty truth is that all good ideas have long since been 'vitalized', and then revitalized and then rerevitalized... Only when the human condition changes dramatically and significantly does the opportunity arise for an [almost] original idea.
Also, because it's easier to jump on the bandwagon than build your own wagon.
__________________ Proud gamer of Sullivan, New York.
Death is not the end, but yet another journey--one that we all must take. The gray rain curtain of this world parts, everything fades to silver glass and then you see it--the white shore and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.
--Everything that I'd like to believe about the afterlife.
Keep it up! I guess most people settle, but not everyone does.
At sixty years of age my father was eating healthy, had been off cigarettes for ten years after a thirty-five year habit, was jogging a few kilometres four days a week, swimming a kilometre each day on weekends, ran a local youth group, met with his mates at the local RSL for a beer on Friday afternoons, and would often hover around watching the proceedings when my friends and I were gaming, looking like he wanted to take a seat at the table but always refusing to roll up a character whenever we would suggest it.
As I said when I delivered his eulogy, he was one of those people who gave up looking for the light at the end of the tunnel and carried his own torch instead.
That's a beautiful thing to say about a person.
My (probably much belated) condolences.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
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Well...I'm 41 and played BD&D, 1e and 2e. I gave 3.x a good try, but except for the classes, monsters and vancian magic, 3.x never felt right.
I tried 4e as soon as I could find a game and I found it more like the older editions than 3.x ever was.
This. Except I'm 40. I find more "old school appeal" in 4E than 3E. 4E to me is a better analog to the wild & wooly days of the LBBs and early B/X where there was a "anything goes" attitude. Much less of the game, both in the rules-set and the "world system" was codified like AD&D.
So I understand much of you are saying Joe about the getting older part- EXCEPT the whole 3E is better than 4E- My literary influences were REH, ERB, HPL, Tolkien, Moorcock, and various others "S&S" or "Classic Fantasy" authors and yet I totally have the "old school disconnect" with 3E, not 4E :shrug:
Bottom line- it's all individual taste and there are a great many factors involved
__________________ Founding Father of O.A.F! - Old school Admirers of Fourth edition
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"I feel books like "A Princess of Mars", "The Swords of Lankhmar" and "The Black Company" are far more important to your gaming experience than whether you choose between OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, or D&D4E." - The Ravyn
I think people sometimes get too fixated about what's "official" to see what they could do with the whole- "David "Zeb" Cook
Well just the other day I told one of my younger friends (he's 23-ish) that I spent so much time down Memory Lane that I'd renamed it Nostalgia Avenue, widened it, planted rows of shade trees and put a coffee stall in about half way along so I'd have somewhere to stop for a nice breakfast. So I guess I can sympathize with you Joe.
That being said: I aint dead yet and intend to try a few more things yet before I am. I'm not really thinking about game systems you understand (yes I will try them, but there's so much more out there.) More like travelling, taking dance lessons, learning a musical instrument, maybe even diving back into serious relationships after a 12 year break. Still have to finish that damn novel too.
Oh yeah: I know what I wanted to say. About no new stories, everything in the media being re-hashed stuff from yester-year. This comes down largely to the fact that mass media is a business and businesses tend not to take risks on unknown products. They'll stick with some tired old franchise instead because they hope it will sell better. And often they are correct. What does this say about the consumers?
But there are new things I'm sure. Maybe much of it doesn't find its way into the main stream media but it's out there. Artists will create and they will prefer to create without interference from outside agencies. All the stories of our current epoch have NOT been told. In fact I don't think it's possible for this to happen. So no need for a major change in the human condition to create new stories. In fact I don't really believe in specific epochs. These are merely groupings of convenience used by historians after the fact.
Just re-read the above. Kee-rist! Sorry. It's 1.00 am and I have found myself stream of consciousness-ing. I'll shut up now.
__________________ Just making it up as I go along.
See, my take on the 4e change is a very different one. For me, 1 -> 2 -> 3/3.5 is aging and maturing along with me. 4e is the midlife crisis. The game's out driving a Miata, divorcing his old wife for a trophy, and trying to be someone it isn't. 3e may play a bit differently from my old 1e or even 2e days, but it's a heck of a lot closer than my 4e experience.
It's weird how wildly different it's perceived given people's expectations of what they want out of the game. For my experiences, 4e plays the same length in combats, has similar math surrounding monster/PC hit dice & staying power, has numbers that fall in similar ranges, and has similar monster, DMing, and treasure assumptions, as the AD&D games I used to play in my teens and early 20's. Though everything around it is quite different, from the healing surges, to the powers & feats, etc. -- The actual play is very reminiscent to me, and looking back on 3E as I recall even the low-level games I've played from 2001 to now, it really hasn't been that similar.
__________________ "Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?" --Delericho
If there's one dragon, it's a solo monster.
If there's five dragons, they're standard monsters.
If there's a dozen dragons, either most of them are minions or your DM is tired of the campaign.
--Lizard
See, my take on the 4e change is a very different one. For me, 1 -> 2 -> 3/3.5 is aging and maturing along with me. 4e is the midlife crisis. The game's out driving a Miata, divorcing his old wife for a trophy, and trying to be someone it isn't. 3e may play a bit differently from my old 1e or even 2e days, but it's a heck of a lot closer than my 4e experience.
For me the editions are like an anology for school.
Basic D&D was kindergarten, it was new and because of this a bit unstructured and silly. It was where I learned more about social aspects than rules of the game.
1E was grade school. It started of just as silly and kindergarten but grew into a better understanding of deeper gaming.
2E was high school. The game became a little more serious and there were some subjects I didn't like.
3E was college. It started off as an exciting new venture. It was different and engaging. But as time wore on the subject material became more and more difficult and it was alot of work to reach the payoff.
Now 4E is post-college. No more studying. I get to spend my* time having fun. I have more freedom to do the extras that are enjoyable instead of crunching for a test. Like buying a big 1" square presentation pad and creating more dynamic and colorful poster maps instead of scribling out a crappy-looking hand drawn map during play on my battlemat.
*(Work is an add-on that I am discounting from my anology since I have been working in one form or another since grade shool.)
Reading Lisa Stevens posts you get a sense of her excitement and energy. I've never met her, but by her posts I would bet she is an enthusiastic person who loves her life and what she does every day. All that carries over to her employees and their products. I would love to hang out there for a day. Hell, if I had any creative talent, I'd love to work there.
I lucked out; I got to have dinner with Erik Mona and Lisa Stevens, and a bunch of other people, at the only Gen Con I ever attended. This was long before Paizo - it was the Gen Con they announced 3e, actually, and I knew Erik and alot of other Greyhawk people from message boards and the Canonfire website. I was pulling together old posts from the AOL/Greyhawk boards into "articles" for ezine compilation, and getting involved in the Oerth Journal.
Anyways, Lisa was great. It was a real pleasure to meet her. Erik was pretty cool too.
Oh, and of all the modern talent to snub, you pick Lady Gaga? Sheesh. I'm 37, and she's one of the few "new" artists I can stand. Actual talent there; not a performing mannequin.
When I was but a little nerd I played games like Rules Cyclopedia D&D, and later 3e, Warhammer Fantasy, Battletech, and Risk.
When I was a medium nerd I played 3e and Magic the Gathering.
And now, as a giant nerd, I play eurogames, modern top-line miniature wargames like Infinity and Anima Tactics, and 4e. And I'm familiar with more RPGs than just the D&D franchise.
For those who know these games, there should be some clear trends indicated. A clear move away from rules that exist for simulation towards rules that exist to facilitate interesting decisions. Away from tables and multiple die rolls towards elegance and simplicity in rules, with complexity in viable options. A move towards elegance, and the idea that the part of the game that's decision-rich and interesting should be the part that you spend the most time upon, and conversely that any part that is decision-poor and uninteresting should require minimal attention.
Due to travel and not having a constant gaming group, its unlikely that I will ever crystalize in a single place on this path. Unless I do settle down with one set of friends, but that's not likely in the near future.
Its hard to really explain this to an audience that's probably mostly unfamiliar with modern trends in board games and war games.
But... modern games are a quantum leap ahead of a lot of older games. And RPGs, while probably the area of gaming that's the most conservative and terrified of change (ok, cardboard chit wargamers are worse), are still puttering onward into the future. And I can't even imagine going backwards.
It's weird how wildly different it's perceived given people's expectations of what they want out of the game. For my experiences, 4e plays the same length in combats, has similar math surrounding monster/PC hit dice & staying power, has numbers that fall in similar ranges, and has similar monster, DMing, and treasure assumptions, as the AD&D games I used to play in my teens and early 20's. Though everything around it is quite different, from the healing surges, to the powers & feats, etc. -- The actual play is very reminiscent to me, and looking back on 3E as I recall even the low-level games I've played from 2001 to now, it really hasn't been that similar.
Henry, I agree with you completely. Even my DMing experience has felt more in line with how things used to be back in my earlier gaming days.
4e is now the definitive case of change for the sake of change in the field of tabletop RPGs. Well, for the sake of money-making *only*, at least. Not the only case, sure. But it wins first prize, with ease and a confidence born of brand power unrivalled.
And most of that other mass market crap you are also not too keen on, Joe? Yep, same again - when there's change or even a show of it, that is. Otherwise, whole cloth regurgitation ftw.
So yeah, I understand completely. And sympathise, a great deal, and not just when it comes to D&D. Stick to your guns, don't buy into the marketing BS, and save yourself some cash besides. w00t!
Dude. I'm all that, cept I had the kids. And tried the dot bomb, kinda got rich to.
Yet no Community Supporter tag? Shame on you!
__________________ "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth,
and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."
Even though The Wheel weaves as The Wheel wills, rest assured James Oliver Rigney, Jr. will NEVER be forgotten.
4e is now the definitive case of change for the sake of change in the field of tabletop RPGs. Well, for the sake of money-making *only*, at least. Not the only case, sure. But it wins first prize, with ease and a confidence born of brand power unrivalled.
Labelling your opinion as definitive does not make it true.
Many people like the changes that were made and consider them change for the sake of a better game. Everyone has their own opinion based on their tastes.
Labelling your opinion as definitive does not make it true.
Many people like the changes that were made and consider them change for the sake of a better game. Everyone has their own opinion based on their tastes.
Absolutely. Uh, so to speak.
Take as many IMOs, IMEs and YMMVs to be implied, as you find palatable. There are indeed some that were meant to be implied, for that matter.
I've been playing D&D and other RPGs regularly for TWENTY YEARS!
I started at the tail-end of AD&D before moving on to 2e and later 3.5. Like Joethelawyer, I've rejected 4e. In those twenty years I've accumulated thousands of dollars of RPG books and wargaming "stuff" (I don't even want to know the $ amount!). I've spent hours pouring over books and painting miniatures so my players can have a great experience. I love this hobby. Maybe I love it too much.
Now I look at all this stuff and think to myself:
1. Was/is it all worth it?
I have many published adventures that I've owned for 10+ years that wanted to run but never have. I've spent countless hours playing and preparing for games when I could have been doing more productive things.
I even have minis from the early 1990s that I've yet to paint.
2. All this stuff is pain to move. In the movie Fight Club, Tyler Durden says: "The more stuff you own the more it ends up owning you." It's so true. I move about every 2 years or so. And it really is a pain. I also have to maintain all this stuff. I hate selling it. When I had to "downsize" my 3e books because of financial problems it hurt. But once those books were gone, I actually felt relieved.
3. 4th Edition seemed to make much of this stuff obsolete. I know now that's one of the main reasons I gave up on 4e (aside from my 3 quibbles and other reasons). I have all this cool stuff that I don't want to convert and I don't want to buy anymore new stuff either.
4. The elusive perfect game. Perhaps this is what I've been chasing. I want that perfect gaming session where everybody has fun and the rules are "just right." Maybe somewhere in all this "stuff" and the "stuff to be" there is a bit of crunch or some fluff that will make the perfect game. It is the Holy Grail.
And you know what? I think the perfect game session happened 20 years ago when I my older brother introduced me to AD&D. I played a 1st level dwarven fighter named Havoc. He was hired by a town to hunt down orcs in the nearby forest. I had no idea what was going on or how the rules worked. Orcs and Dwarves were just monsters out of Tolkien, and I thought that was so cool. I fought an ogre. I had only some idea what an ogre was. I held up one of my old M.U.S.C.L.E. figures to my brother and said: "Does this look like an ogre, even though he has a third eye?"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.S.C.L.E.)
I'm pretty sure that I haven't experienced that sense of wonder since. I've come close. Maybe its because I'm almost always the one DMing. 4e seemed to get back to the sense wonder until I realized didn't like it for various reasons.
Don't get me wrong. I love gaming. Some of my fondest memories are around the gaming table are with friends. D&D has been a great outlet for my creativity and has actually gotten me through some tough times in my life.
Still, at this juncture, I can't help but think: Should I start doing something else?
__________________ "Farewell, Friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!"
--Stormbringer
Because the dark and gritty truth is that all good ideas have long since been 'vitalized', and then revitalized and then rerevitalized... Only when the human condition changes dramatically and significantly does the opportunity arise for an [almost] original idea.
Also, because it's easier to jump on the bandwagon than build your own wagon.
I hear what you are saying and generally agree, but I think it is a mistake to equate originality with artistic quality, whether intentionally or not (I'm not sure you are doing either, but there is a common tendency to do so). Furthermore, I don't equate "vitalized" work with "original" work. Or rather, I don't see "originality" as equating with something new, as if all one has to do to be original is say "Imagine a universe where the clouds are actually the buttocks of great bilious deities and the trees are neon pink with tinsel fruit that sprout wings as they fall to the ground." Hey, that's a novel idea but is it original? I think not. "Original" means origin-al...from a place of origin. Primal. Archetypal. Something that is truly "original" will echo beyond itself; something that is just novel will die, quickly forgotten.
Or it may be that I am personally not interested in originality at all, but something more akin to that which carries archetypal resonance. The form it takes doesn't have to be original in the sense of novel, but I would like it to be able to hold depth, and to do so in an aesthetically pleasing manner (which can vary widely). I'd rather have simple yet resonant names like Gondor and Arnor than Exzidchopilop and Rxoripus. The latter are more novel, but they are flat; they don't carry meaning and won't bear children, so to speak. Gondor and Arnor will (and have already) live for ages.
This is not to say that I don't enjoy encountering something new, but that the sense of wonderment I am talking about--the deep experience of the imagination catching fire--has nothing (or very little) to do with novelty, and much more to do with what I am calling archetypal resonance...along with numerous other factors such as the much bandied-around term verisimilitude, aesthetic harmony, cultural relevance, etc.
Still, at this juncture, I can't help but think: Should I start doing something else?
I cannot say how much I agree with this.
I've been going through my hard drive, looking at old files from ten or more years ago, and my feelings, overall, are a mix of bewilderment and amazement. 90% of my creativity was ten years ago, and frankly, it was good. Now I'm chewing the same stuff over and over. Realizing it pisses me off.
Personally, I think I'm gravitating towards retro-clones not because of nostalgia (I pretty much started with 2e), but because stripping away the mechanics is going to force me to focus on the writing and the creation, which is all this ever was in the beginning.
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