General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
This is not to say that I don't enjoy encountering something new, but that the sense of wonderment I am talking about--the deep experience of the imagination catching fire--has nothing (or very little) to do with novelty, and much more to do with what I am calling archetypal resonance...along with numerous other factors such as the much bandied-around term verisimilitude, aesthetic harmony, cultural relevance, etc.
Ah, okay, I totally sympathize with you. I don't have anything real to add, other than that it is very difficult to line up all those different factors into a satisfying work of art, even for good artists.
__________________ Proud gamer of Sullivan, New York.
Death is not the end, but yet another journey--one that we all must take. The gray rain curtain of this world parts, everything fades to silver glass and then you see it--the white shore and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.
--Everything that I'd like to believe about the afterlife.
Well I just checked out this Lady Gaga person on You Tube. Sounds like generic RnB/Pop to me. Fine if you like that, can't say I do. I like generic punk/metal.
What I really look for is what Mercurious describes as archetypal resonance and stuff. YEah that. (not feeling very eloquent today.)
__________________ Just making it up as I go along.
I've been going through my hard drive, looking at old files from ten or more years ago, and my feelings, overall, are a mix of bewilderment and amazement. 90% of my creativity was ten years ago, and frankly, it was good. Now I'm chewing the same stuff over and over. Realizing it pisses me off.
Personally, I think I'm gravitating towards retro-clones not because of nostalgia (I pretty much started with 2e), but because stripping away the mechanics is going to force me to focus on the writing and the creation, which is all this ever was in the beginning.
Your comment reminds me of a Dragon article (in issue #216, 1995) I first read years ago "The Auld Alliance" by Arthur Collins:
These kids read the rule books before they read the stories that inspired the games. That means their palates have been trained in some strange ways.
I've also been looking at AD&D and retroclones again because I just want to tell or participate in a good adventure. Nowadays it seems people will judge a DM on the ruleset he or she uses, rather than on the DM's qualities as a DM.
And you're right. It is all about the writing and the creation. And somehow, the rules have gotten in the way of many people from seeing that. It seems like things have shifted over the years from participating in a good story/adventure to game balance, kewl powerz, and so-called game balance.
For me, 4e seemed to shift back to the creation aspect--as least for the DM, at first. But overtime it felt like I was just playing a tactical miniature battles game rather than a roleplaying game--even more so than with 3.5e.
I tried to convince people to at least try older versions of D&D or even retroclones, but to no avail.
__________________ "Farewell, Friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!"
--Stormbringer
Your comment reminds me of a Dragon article (in issue #216, 1995) I first read years ago "The Auld Alliance" by Arthur Collins:
These kids read the rule books before they read the stories that inspired the games. That means their palates have been trained in some strange ways.
I think that's true (I'm reading the article right now; thank goodness for the Dragon PDF archive!) Alot of D&D's appeal to me in the beginning was the structure it gave to the stuff that was in my head - I grew up without a tv (my parents decided not to replace the one that broke when I was 4), and my mom had a large collection (Children's Bookhouse + others) of children's storys. I read constantly. D&D gave alot of shape to it.
Nowadays, I wonder if D&D doesn't give structure to alot of what "kids" read (ie, FR & DL books) instead of vice versa, plus online/console games have replaced alot of the "imaginary" play. There are still incredible & potentially game-changing fantasy books being written (Strange & Norrell; The Orphan's Tale), but multi-volume epics have, for the most part, replaced individual novels by many authors (12 books = 1 story, instead of 12 books = 12 stories or 4 stories). There are obvious exceptions (Elric, Amber), but page counts have risen quite a bit in recent years. My two-volume book club copy of the Chronicles of Amber is pretty close in page count to a single Steven Erikson novel.
Anyways, didn't mean to get distracted into a rant.
There are still incredible & potentially game-changing fantasy books being written (Strange & Norrell; The Orphan's Tale), but multi-volume epics have, for the most part, replaced individual novels by many authors (12 books = 1 story, instead of 12 books = 12 stories or 4 stories).
If you mean The Orphan's Tale that I think you mean, then as one literary snob to another, have some EXP.
Actually, in a week or so, once I wrap up my schoolwork, maybe it's time for a "Books to Change Your World" thread.
Yeah, those are the ones. Absolutely amazing.
I spent a few weeks after I read them trying to convince everyone I know to read them as well. One person, a librarian, read part of the first and then stopped because she thought they were grim. No one else even tried. Which is frustrating because I think these books are on a level where you could teach college courses about them, covering not only their use of folk history and mythology, but also their structural arrangement and their social critique.
I spent a few weeks after I read them trying to convince everyone I know to read them as well. One person, a librarian, read part of the first and then stopped because she thought they were grim. No one else even tried. Which is frustrating because I think these books are on a level where you could teach college courses about them, covering not only their use of folk history and mythology, but also their structural arrangement and their social critique.
The structure is what blows my mind. Everything else is fantastic, but the level of interconnectedness and intricacy (sp) is mindblowing. I can only imagine an office totally filled with post-it notes and string.
And you're right. It is all about the writing and the creation. And somehow, the rules have gotten in the way of many people from seeing that. It seems like things have shifted over the years from participating in a good story/adventure to game balance, kewl powerz, and so-called game balance.
For me, 4e seemed to shift back to the creation aspect--as least for the DM, at first. But overtime it felt like I was just playing a tactical miniature battles game rather than a roleplaying game--even more so than with 3.5e.
I tried to convince people to at least try older versions of D&D or even retroclones, but to no avail.
Problem is, different systems and approaches work for different people.. uh, differently. That is, if you see that 4e does not lead to better writing and more fun on your part, and if your group does not want to try older editions, you have to get a new group and game that lead to more fun.
Everybody is different - i know i would have NEVER created a homebrew world with earlier editions. My first one was for 4e. And i have always believed and will always believe that cewl powerz and game balance are superb additions to roleplay-heavy gaming. Which, in my Campaign, it does.
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Joe, thanks for that OP. To be honest, I wasn't interested in the topic, but your name recently started to rear my head when you wrote that satirical imitation of the Greg Leeds interview. You're most certainly not without creative talent (to respond to st. you said above).
It was nice to read more about yourself. I think your OP captures really well one thing I haven't seen mentioned much on these boards: the sheer joy of passing an edition by for the first time. (And I mean joy - a calm, fulfilling emotion - and not the sort of rage and spite we've seen everywhere.) I guess it must be odd to read for some of the older players who've given 2E or 3E a pass. As for myself, I'm only half there since I've retained 3E as my game of choice but thoroughly enjoy the occasional 4E game.
Thanks for your post again, and I look forward to reading more of your stuff.
All this stuff is pain to move. In the movie Fight Club, Tyler Durden says: "The more stuff you own the more it ends up owning you." It's so true. I move about every 2 years or so. And it really is a pain. I also have to maintain all this stuff. I hate selling it. When I had to "downsize" my 3e books because of financial problems it hurt. But once those books were gone, I actually felt relieved.
Pretty much the same, here. I recently adopted B/X D&D as my 'one and only' system, and one of the driving forces in my decision was that, rather than carting around a bunch of heavy books when I move, I now move the equivalent of 2 'magazine-sized' books and a restaurant menu (my home-made DM screen)...well, that and my dice, and a USB stick with character sheets and such on it.
I shuttle frequently between living/working environments (staying at each for several months at a time), and have three 'regular' groups depending on where I'm living at the moment. Each group is made up of a mix of older and younger players, and in each case, I'm the only DM.
Each of the three groups agreed with my decision to game under the older edition (one even suggested it to me). We had played and enjoyed 3.X (and one group has been together since 2e), and had tried, but neither group really enjoyed, 4e. I purchased an old copy of the Moldvay 'Basic' book, and ran a 'nostalgia' game with it, and my group liked it better than 3e or 4e, and they suggested that we make it our regular gaming 'engine.' We did, and never looked back.
I tried this approach with my other two groups, and both agreed to try using B/X for our games, and it has worked out better in each instance. Now, it's much easier to 'shuttle' between games, since there isn't nearly as much to transport.
Our switch, by the way, was not due to B/X being a "mullet," but because play was faster (particularly combat), and seemed more intuitive somehow, even for the younger players.
Yeah, I'd have to say that I had a very different journey as well. I grew up in a former factory town about 20 miles out of Boston. I received fantasy books and RPG material from family members early on, but really lacked the social skills necessary to participate in a group until I was in high school. I got to go to a variety of schools, public, private, and parochial before I graduated. I also got to play RPGs as well as CCGs, chess, video, and computer games. Once I got into college I really started to appreciate the appeal of face-to-face or at least avatar-to-avatar social gaming experience with RL friends.
Learning to think about life in terms of people and relationships rather than objects really curbed a lot of my impulses to constantly move from place to place and thing to thing. Now that I'm getting on towards 30 it really bothers me that I don't know most of my neighbor's names. I neither pity nor envy people who have never moved away from their home town, but I do appreciate the huge benefits you can get from keeping your friends and family close and really bonding with a particular place or community. I also reflect back on what my parents did and taught me and realize that I was being foolish and mindlessly reactionary in those times where I tried to throw off whatever they'd given me out of hand.
Frankly, I think my experiences gaming really helped give me that appreciation. Growing up I had a very adversarial outlook on life. I had a lot of immature childhood tormentors and while I appreciated adult company I wasn't a peer and I didn't have a lot in common with the adults in my family in terms of interests. Consequently getting to know people was really difficult and my relationships with most folks were shallow. Games helped me open up dialogue over a common interest. The shared experiences helped me deepen relationships with other people. Accordingly, my solo gaming declined and my social gaming increased a lot.
Now I'm proud to be a husband, a home owner, a community volunteer, and hope to become father. I don't think the pre-social-gaming Marty (the kid stuck on 1 player Nintendo and competitive Chess) would've ever been able to grok just what that all really means.
When it comes to games, I have my preferences, but the biggest concern is always going to be, "What can we all enjoy and share?" Right now that means 4th Edition D&D, because a lot of my friends are all sharing the experience of exploring a new edition and a new realms. It gives us a lot to talk about. I've still got a semi-regular 3.5 game too because a good friend enjoys running it. The best game system in the world is no good to me without decent friends and associated to play it with.
Joe, thanks for that OP. To be honest, I wasn't interested in the topic, but your name recently started to rear my head when you wrote that satirical imitation of the Greg Leeds interview. You're most certainly not without creative talent (to respond to st. you said above).
It was nice to read more about yourself. I think your OP captures really well one thing I haven't seen mentioned much on these boards: the sheer joy of passing an edition by for the first time. (And I mean joy - a calm, fulfilling emotion - and not the sort of rage and spite we've seen everywhere.) I guess it must be odd to read for some of the older players who've given 2E or 3E a pass. As for myself, I'm only half there since I've retained 3E as my game of choice but thoroughly enjoy the occasional 4E game.
Thanks for your post again, and I look forward to reading more of your stuff.
Thank you very much. That's really nice of you to say.
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
Interesting. I wonder what the age spread for favored editions is (wasn't there a poll on this?)
I am in my mid 40s, played the heck out of OD&D/AD&D though junior high school and then stopped in high school (before 2E came out). I didn't return until 3.5ed had been out for about 2 years. I tend to like 4E more than 3.5, and I wonder if it's because I identify more with it, and it being closer to OD&D than 3.5 seems to be with it's rules for everything.
I'll go back and read your post in more detail later, but very thought provoking Joe, thanks in advance for sharing.
Orphan's Tales: In the Night Garden 
That is, if you see that 4e does not lead to better writing and more fun on your part, and if your group does not want to try older editions, you have to get a new group and game that lead to more fun. 
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