General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I am new to DMing in general, and will be DM for a group of new players in a couple weeks (4e), so i want to make a good impression on them for the game.
When you are running an adventure, and the PCs are in a dungeon, how much of that dungeon do you have pre drawn vs how much is done at the table on the fly (like on a wet-erase battle mat)?
Also, for the ofiicial published adventures, do you go into the the encounter layouts in the adventure guide and recreate the grid needed for said encounter (for the ones not included on a grid map in the module package) on 1 inch graph paper or something else ahead of time? Or is that done on the fly?
I am not sure how much to reveal to the players at a time. I was flipping throughthe Keep on the Shadowfell adventure guide, and it had an intricate map of the floor layout for one of the floors and of course it is riddled with different encounters that the players may walk into, depending on where they go. If I was running that game, would I need to draw out the entire floor plan on graph paper (as it is not included with the other maps for that adventure)? Or do I just stick to descriptions of where the PCs are, and only build/draw out the relevant area when they come across an encounter?
Sorry for all the questions, Im a little overwhelmed and confused. I just want to be prepared when I run my first game next month, and Im not sure how to approach a dungeon layout.
Welcome! Don't be depressed, you're about to dive head-first into something awesome!
Having a good idea of the overall layout of a dungeon is the best idea... hence why published adventures have large keyed maps. But, most of the action only takes place in localised sections, which is why individual encounters can be keyed to specific rooms or areas. It's a bit overwhelming to expect the players to visualise the whole thing in their head, but their perspective naturally contracts down to what's going on in their immediate surroundings anyway.
If you want things to be slightly more 'realistic', then you need to be aware of areas around the PC's, whereby the noise they're making, or the actions they're taking, could attract the attention of monsters which aren't necessarily listed as part of the current room or encounter. Also, a monster may retreat from a fight by running to a room where he knows a lot of his pals are waiting. But, none of this necessary to running an enjoyable dungeon. The monsters could be far too hung up on their card game to worry about the noise from down the corridor, the dungeon could be an inherently noisy place at the best of times, and monsters could always just fight to the death.
For encounters, I have a dry-erase white-board with a 1-inch grid printed on it, which is always front and center at our game table. Any time tactical positioning becomes important (so, most, but not all fights in 4E) I sketch out the outline of the encounter area and use D&D mini's to represent players, monsters, hazards, traps, and so-on. It takes just a few seconds to draw the room, terrain, and what-not, and if you do it *while* you're describing the room to the players, no time is wasted, and it becomes a neat little bit of exposition.
Before the players take their characters into an area, they know nothing about it (other means of gathering intelligence -- such as scrying or having an informant -- notwithstanding). But, after they've been there, I assume they can find their way back out unless the structure is specifcally designed to not allow them to do that easily (such as a maze, or building that changes shape). This means that unless another fight breaks out, they can usually say something to me like, "Okay, we retreat through the north corridor past that statue of the minotaur and rest in the room with all the rubble", and I'll just allow it.
This is just my own personal way of doing things. There are DM's out there who like to build entire dungeons from tiles or drawn out on gridded paper, or from miniature scenery like the cool Dwarven Forge stuff, and gradually 'unveil' it as the characters progress. I don't really have the time for that level of preparation, though... nor the square footage on my gaming table to do it justice.
Good luck! I'm sure you'll have a blast.
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Last edited by wedgeski; 29th April 2009 at 11:49 AM..
Also keep in mind that setting up the encounter area needs to be fast and furious, not slow and tedious. What I mean by this is that when you have a battle you're laying out on the battle mat, or piece of paper, or whatever you're using, don't waste a lot of time on it. The players aren't going to know if it's 35' from here to there or 30'. Is the curve of the wall a little off? Probably doesn't matter. Slight angle problem? Fudge it.
It's really easy to get bogged down on getting the map perfect and really slow down game play. Combat is coming, they're excited, so keep the pace moving.
My recomendation from my couple of decades of DM'ing is that when you're running a prepared dungeon or module, you should be prepared to wing it and fudge when necessary. If you can't find the answer in a few moments, make your best guess and move on. Lost track of exactly which room the ogre is in? Put it where you want it. Can't remember if it's two orcs and one gnoll or the other way around? Grab some miniatures and use whatever you have. As with mapping, don't let youself bog down in details and trying to get everything perfect.
And most importantly: Remember to have fun!
__________________ "It wasn't supposed to turn out this way. If they had talked to the rabbit, they would have figured that out."" --Prophet2b
It's really easy to get bogged down on getting the map perfect and really slow down game play. Combat is coming, they're excited, so keep the pace moving.
This point is crucial and should be stamped on the brain in permenant ink.
Nothing is worse for the feel of the game than:
" You creep forward in the dark tunnel toward the sound of the the deep pounding noise. Just ahead, the tunnel opens into a huge cavern. In the center of the cavern, a large ziggurat rises above the floor. The place is lit by many torches along the walls. Standing in the cave are dozens of humanoids in hooded robes. Atop the ziggurat are several more robed humanoids. One of these humanoids is pounding on a large drum. "
...tension builds, dice are rolled............
" One of the humanoids on top of the ziggurat points in your direction!
Roll for initiative!"
The DM then proceeds to break out the marker, and sketch the cavern in exact detail. After this is done the miniature case is opened and he begans digging for suitable minis. Several players wander off to refill beverages and an involved conversation about the movie that just hit theaters begins.
Fifteen minutes later the scene is set and the players refocus thier attention to the game...........gradually. The feel and the tension of the scene is lost.
That scenario comes from personal experience and it sucks. I have had good results with the battlemat/plexiglass/prepared map combination of map tools.
You can get a large pad of 1" square paper at most office supply stores. Use these to prepare detailed maps of known encounter areas before the session. You can make them as simple or complex as you feel like depending on available prep time. You can fold them up and store them in a folder.
At the table you can put down your battle mat. Get a sheet of thin plexi-glass to lay over the mat. Most markers will work ok on plexi-glass. As an added benefit, it protects your mat in case a perm marker is used by mistake. I use the mat for ad-hoc drawing of things like random encounters.
The best part is when you get to the planned encounter area, you can describe the scene, unfold your prepared map, and slide it under the plexi-glass. Your scene is instantly set in as much detail as you want. Having your minis pre-selected and kept in an easy to reach place means that the combat can be ready to go in under a minute. You can preserve all that drama that was building before the map came out.
In general, I don't reveal a tactical map or break out minis until action that requires them starts. Nothing spoils a suprise encounter like having the players move minis on a map with no immediate danger present. Its like getting a megaphone and announcing a countdown to a trap or ambush. Its a good idea to get a set of standard marching orders from the party for narrow passages, standard movement, outdoor travel, ect. That way, when the action does start, you will have a good frame of reference to the initial positioning of the PC's.
The DM then proceeds to break out the marker, and sketch the cavern in exact detail. After this is done the miniature case is opened and he begans digging for suitable minis. Several players wander off to refill beverages and an involved conversation about the movie that just hit theaters begins.
Ah, right there, ExploderWizard. If EVER at all possible, this scenario should be avoided. If you collect minis, or even just have a few, or you have nothing but Fiery Dragon counters, you can save time by planning out all your tactical encounters ahead of time. Put your minis in a baggie. Or keep them hidden behind the screen. Hide them under the table. If it is at all possible, have the monsters and enemies at hand for the encounters you think the PCs will come across. It doesn't always work out like that, and i've had sessions digging for monsters, but you can save yourself a ton of time, especially in a grid-focused game like 4e.
Ah, right there, ExploderWizard. If EVER at all possible, this scenario should be avoided.
Oh yeah I agree. That little tale came from experiences I had 21 years ago. I had just started to collect and paint minis and use maps/figures in games. Up til then it was all map free with the occasional sketch on graph paper for the really complex battles.
There's a number of GMing styles in handling a dungeon crawl. My basic advice is to cut out things that slow the game down, and ruin tension.
Here's some ways to "run the dungeon":
The old fashioned way, is to never show the players the map. Let them map it, if they so choose. Describe each room and corridor. Such as "this corridor runs for another 30 feet, then Ts to the right and left." This style is tedious and slow. The GM is usually hoping that the party gets lost, in this style. Because that's the only reason to hand-feed the information.
A better way is for the GM to draw the map in tiny form on a piece of normal paper, as the party goes. Basically lines and boxes for halls and rooms. It's faster, because the GM doesn't have to waste time on explaining dimensions, and the party can see it. Some GMs actually try to map this on the battlemat, but I've found the larger scale tends to encourage trying to be accurate. Using non-graph paper encourages you to just draw a line for the next section and be done.
The fastest way, is to hand-draw a copy of the map on normal paper. You're not looking for scale or accuracy, simply a drawing as if an NPC had drawn the dungeon for somebody else. Leave out ALL secrets and room numbers. This map might even just be lines and boxes. Early in the adventure give this map to the players with an in-game explanation. Then they just put a token on the map, showing where they are. It'll be really easy for them to point to "we take this route to this room, does anything happen on the way?"
It's obvious that I support use of the "mini-map" in either drawn during game time or handed to them before they get to the dungeon. The mini-map really expedites explaining the dungeon layout, and lets you focus on flavor text and encounters.
Once an encounter starts, I draw up the location surrounding the PCs, which usually contains the fight (my mat is big enough, and the party doesn't tend to do a running battle). This is just lines for walls. I plop the PCs in, then the monsters, and we go.
To expedite miniature use, pre-game, I pick through my minis and fill a small box with the minis I need for the game based on the encounters. This way, I only have 5-20 minis to look through, rather than ALL of my minis. If you don't have minis, numbered tokens work well for representing the monsters. I then tend to have each player put one of their dice out as their mini (unless they have their own mini). This works well enough, and setup goes quickly enough.
The key to battlemat setup is to be quick. Don't get too precise and detailed. They just need the outline of the room, with the exits marked, and any blocking objects indicated.
Welcome. DMing is hard, so be prepared to be frustrated occassionally.
Rule 1: do what makes it fun for the players and you. If they like super detailed maps, do those. If they don't care about that stuff, don't worry about it.
Rule 2: wing it a lot. precision in map drawing is not critical. Wing the battles to make them more dramatic. Let the PCs get a few wins under their belts before really testing them.
Rule 3: prepare your encounters ahead of time. If you have minis or counters, bunch them up by encounter (I use baggies or little plastic boxes to group minis that go in one encounter together)
Rule 4. Have fun (yes, this is the same as rule 1 - this is a game, played for fun - some people have a hard time remembering this)
As for your actual questions:
I usually pre-draw (or in my case, organize 3D terrain I've made) the encounters so that I can place them on our table. Now, I have a decent sized table and a room dedicated to roleplaying, so that isn't realistic for everyone. I'd recommend having the key encounter areas pre-drawn to a large extent. You don't want the scenario described above where you are in the middle of the excitement and then have to stop the game.
Remember, no one (or at least most people you'd want to play with) will be a stickler if they later re-drew the maps you laid out and a room or two overlapped. Don't get too caught up in perfection, find the balance that you and your players enjoy.
I will say that throwing in details of description, like odors, light levels, dirtiness, molds, whatever, makes the experience more immersive and for the most part more fun. But you can go overboard with this sometimes.
You can get a large pad of 1" square paper at most office supply stores. Use these to prepare detailed maps of known encounter areas before the session. You can make them as simple or complex as you feel like depending on available prep time. You can fold them up and store them in a folder.
This is what I do for my games, and I strongly recommend it. It was among the best $20 I've ever spent. 4e, more than previous editions, benefits from interesting and compelling terrain. It won't matter if you're a little off on some measurements, but interesting maps are (imho) essential for players to get the most out of forced movement effects.
Also, I think Fiery Dragon released their Creature Counters for KotS for free. I expect they probably still are, if you check their homepage. If you can, print these out in color on some cardstock... It makes a big difference if you don't have a ton of minis. I like them so much I've bought them for every other adventure we've gotten to. It's easy to separate them out by encounter area, too.
It takes some time to get comfy in the DM seat. Don't give up if it doesn't go well at first.
Thanks for all the advice so far! While I am intimidated a bit, and I know it wont always go smoothly, Im also very excited about being DM, and once Im comfortable enough, I cant wait go through a custom campaign with my group.
Thanks for all the advice so far! While I am intimidated a bit, and I know it wont always go smoothly, Im also very excited about being DM, and once Im comfortable enough, I cant wait go through a custom campaign with my group.
oh, and put some thought into how you're going to handle keeping track of initiative order. I know, a little irrelevant to the question, but if your early experiences are anything like mine were, it can derail your game a lot easier than you'd think.
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I almost always describe rooms and hallways without drawing them at all. To me, the players get a stronger sense of the cramped and small-ness of a dungeon, or the large expanse, if I describe it without putting a couple lines on the table.
When they get into a combat I lay out the room, but I don't draw the entire thing, ever.
The other benefit to this is, I can design the encounter "rooms" in the dungeon or cavern, and largely ignore the rest, giving them options and directions on the fly. I used to do the whole "draw the entire dungeon" and walk them through room-by-room, but it often took more time to draw, erase, and redraw than it does to just describe. If a fight is to break out, or a trap that designates area (i.e. a flooding trap, or electrified floor, etc...) then I'll draw it out and work through the scene.
I guess you could say I run my dungeons like a show runs it's sets; the enterprise wasn't fully existing in a warehouse, only main set-pieces were built. It wasn't necessary to show the characters walk from one end of the ship to the other, only that they arrive via means we recognize (elevators, hallways, etc..).
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oh, and put some thought into how you're going to handle keeping track of initiative order. I know, a little irrelevant to the question, but if your early experiences are anything like mine were, it can derail your game a lot easier than you'd think.
For encounters, I have a dry-erase white-board with a 1-inch grid printed on it, which is always front and center at our game table. Any time tactical positioning becomes important (so, most, but not all fights in 4E) I sketch out the outline of the encounter area and use D&D mini's to represent players, monsters, hazards, traps, and so-on. It takes just a few seconds to draw the room, terrain, and what-not, and if you do it *while* you're describing the room to the players, no time is wasted, and it becomes a neat little bit of exposition.
Before the players take their characters into an area, they know nothing about it (other means of gathering intelligence -- such as scrying or having an informant -- notwithstanding). But, after they've been there, I assume they can find their way back out unless the structure is specifcally designed to not allow them to do that easily (such as a maze, or building that changes shape). This means that unless another fight breaks out, they can usually say something to me like, "Okay, we retreat through the north corridor past that statue of the minotaur and rest in the room with all the rubble", and I'll just allow it.
This is pretty much exactly how we do it.
I draw on our (fairly massive) white-board on the fly as the PCs move along, just drawing to the limits of their sight/darkvision/light source/whatever, and describing while I draw. It doesn't take me very long to draw things in, so there's almost no time wasted (in fact, my players would like more time wasted so they can discuss and strategize a bit more!).
A bit of column A a bit from column B and a touch of C. For some encounters, I just make something up, like if it's a wilderness encounter or an urban encounter. I've run 3e combats in 1e style, with no map and just verbal descriptions. But for major set pieces? I have it all planned out or the module authors do.
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We use a whiteboard with 1 inch squares. It has served us well and with colored markers makes it easy to see where there is water or fire for example. Although, I do like the idea of the large gridded pad for pre-drawing intricate locals.
I try to draw only what the players can see and when they can see it. An excellent example of this is they walked into a large room with a dragon in the center. No one looked around and for a change, the DM's plan worked. There were 4 alcoves on the wall where they walked in that no one saw until the guards walked out mid first round and everyone was out of position.
As for mini's, I had a bunch of the old lead ones, so each party member chose their own and uses it every session. For monsters, I use dice. It works well since I can group the dice based on monster group(all the orcs are D6s, the goblin archers, d8, etc). What is really nice is we take the time to make sure they all have a unique number facing up. It makes targeting them and keeping track of their hit points so much easier.
For initiative, each player has a small post it with their name on it. We put them in init order, along with dice(for the monsters) down the side of the board. Works great. Someone usually moves something down the order so everyone knows who is coming up next.
But like everyone said, have fun. Improvise. If you ask my players, one of the most memorable experiences was something I improvised. They were fighting a black dragon in the top of a tower. The party attempted to draw him into the hallway where the terrain was much better for them. So they all flee out there and ready an action for when he comes through the door. Instead I tell them it sounds like he is flying away. Then he crashed through the ceiling on top of 3 of them. Never planned it, cheated in that he crashed through where it would impact them the most, and they never saw it coming.
Also, for the official published adventures, do you go into the the encounter layouts in the adventure guide and recreate the grid needed for said encounter (for the ones not included on a grid map in the module package) on 1 inch graph paper or something else ahead of time? Or is that done on the fly?
I am wondering did you buy the adventure and therefore have the battle mats or did you download the PDF from WotC and do not?
If not I don't think the kobold encounter would be all that difficult to run without a map or a very rough map with miniatures. Only the final two encounters would be better with some pre-drawn maps ready to go.
As to what to show, most of the first few encounter areas in Keep on the Shadowfell have light so having them predrawn and ready to go will speed things along. It is only when you get to the last few areas on the first level where everything goes dark and you need to worry about what the Player Characters can see. Then I tend to draw to the limit of their light source (which in my case is a Wizards Light Cantrip--so not very far).
While many here are suggesting a vinyl battle mat or white board both of these options are expensive upfront. I frequently use a 1" grid pad I bought from Staples (I think I paid $12 or $13 for my pad). The added bonus is if you end a game session mid fight the next game you already have the map ready to go.
If you later decide to spend more money and get something else you haven't spent too much money for the experiment.
Welcome. DMing is hard, so be prepared to be frustrated occassionally.
Rule 1: do what makes it fun for the players and you. If they like super detailed maps, do those. If they don't care about that stuff, don't worry about it.
Rule 2: wing it a lot. precision in map drawing is not critical. Wing the battles to make them more dramatic. Let the PCs get a few wins under their belts before really testing them.
Rule 3: prepare your encounters ahead of time. If you have minis or counters, bunch them up by encounter (I use baggies or little plastic boxes to group minis that go in one encounter together)
Rule 4. Have fun (yes, this is the same as rule 1 - this is a game, played for fun - some people have a hard time remembering this)
As for your actual questions:
I usually pre-draw (or in my case, organize 3D terrain I've made) the encounters so that I can place them on our table. Now, I have a decent sized table and a room dedicated to roleplaying, so that isn't realistic for everyone. I'd recommend having the key encounter areas pre-drawn to a large extent. You don't want the scenario described above where you are in the middle of the excitement and then have to stop the game.
Remember, no one (or at least most people you'd want to play with) will be a stickler if they later re-drew the maps you laid out and a room or two overlapped. Don't get too caught up in perfection, find the balance that you and your players enjoy.
Zaukrie's post is very good advice. Except for one thing -- I caution you that you shouldn't try to 'wing it' too much until you have played enough to gain a working familiarity with the rules. When you're starting out, I think you'll be best served by having everything written down. You don't have to follow what's written JUST BECAUSE it's written, but that gives you a place to start, and you can adapt the written situation to whatever particular alterations have been made to those circumstances by your actual game. That makes basically no sense. Look, dude, there's not a person alive who can tell you exactly how to DM a game. Just keep your Monster Manual and your DM Guide handy, and jump right in! IT'S A BLAST!!
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