[Forked Thread: How Important is Magic..?] 5 things you need to know

[Cadfan]

Ooh, and Mononoke Hime.

[Fallen Seraph]

Originally Posted by Cadfan

Ooh, and Mononoke Hime.

Very true, hmm in general I would say Miyazaki's films are pretty good modern fantasy with a obviously wide range. Can't believe forgot to think of that with my initial post.

[JeffB]

:shrug: other than the Hellboy movie, I know nothing of the 5 on this list (I know what WOW is but have never seen/played it)

Maybe I'm not understanding the OP, but the influences that show in my 4E games are still the same as when I was a kid playing the LBBs and B/X/A D&D- i.e. REH, ERB,Tolkien, Moorcock, Thieves World authors, HPL, etc. Perhaps these days with a bit more "cinematic flair" thrown in from the original SW trilogy and Indiana Jones than back then, but still primarily the same.

I think the power level has ratcheted up in 4E (and 3E) to where everyone is an Elric or John Carter within a few levels...vs. say... Boromir.... but thats another thread

[Hereticus]

Originally Posted by JeffB

(I know what WOW is but have never seen/played it)

Everything I know of WoW is based on an episode of South Park.

YouTube - South Park - World of Warcraft

[tuxgeo]

Originally Posted by Keefe the Thief

Forked from: How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition
< snip > . . . what i call a "smooth point of entry" - that is, a hobby/story or group of stories/movie/genre etc. you have read/experienced that should make it easier to get into modern D&D,.

Gary didn´t design the game in a way so that you had it easier getting into it if you had read Conan or Leiber. He did it that way because this was his idea of appropriate fantasy for D&D. I think a modern D&D edition should be pretty unashamed about reinvent itself in such a way that it allows those who use and know modern media to have an easier time of picking it up. I´d go so far to collect a suggested-reading list in the first corebook that tells you "if you´ve read/played/watched this, this is for you."

Now, lets collect our personal 5-point-list of media that modern editions of D&D should take into account to make it easier for players to get into the game. Important: this is not a "i like this stuff - and D&D should represent it" list or a "D&D has always been and should always be about these books" list. It is about "this is what D&D should reflect to ease the transfer into playing the game in this day and age." < list snipped >

Those criteria go in two opposing directions: A "suggested-reading list" is for people who already are involved in D&D, and want more stretches of their imaginations along similar lines; but an "ease the transfer" list is for people who are not yet into D&D, and need suggestions to show them that D&D might be like the things they already enjoy. A suggested reading list would be a great addition to the DMG, though preferably in an appendix; but an ease-the-transfer list might do better being relegated to (ephemeral) advertising campaigns, to allow the core rulebooks to remain more timeless. (Widely loved games and movies change all the time as more games and movies come out.)

What I would like to see more of in the core books is the sort of imaginative Fluff that so decorates some of the older campaign worlds.
Reason: If D&D is to appeal to all, it should resonate with most people's hopes and aspirations about what would be fun and interesting. In this connection, I like the famous quote from G. K. Chesterton, "Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." The relevance of that quote, as I see it, is that the potential players of the game already speak the language of the game to a certain extent, and do not need to be told why to kill dragons, but only how.
More generally, D&D must be built on the premise that there is already an existing cultural (and perhaps genetic) human heritage of desire for adventure, and the game should appeal to that.
If large parts of D&D were stolen from the Kalevala and Icelandic Sagas, as well as Greek and Roman and Egyptian myths, this is probably because those sources had already been proven to have wide appeal and staying power. If we want to list more modern influences that have similar appeal and staying power, we need to wait a few decades to be sure of the latter.

Now, the OP did ask for a list of suggested media, so to comply with that:
- the Lord of the Rings movies, obviously; but the books even more so
- most of Miyazaki, especially "Spirited Away" (for its Academy Award)
- Elder Scrolls games; the graphics in Oblivion are striking and evocative
- Eddings' Belgariad and Mallorean series (playing with the archetypes)
- The Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander (no one else listed them)

[Cadfan]

Originally Posted by JeffB

Maybe I'm not understanding the OP, but the influences that show in my 4E games are still the same as when I was a kid playing the LBBs and B/X/A D&D- i.e. REH, ERB,Tolkien, Moorcock, Thieves World authors, HPL, etc.

That's fine.

What he's saying is that in his opinion its ok, even good, if D&D evolves to accomodate modern fantasy. And then he's asking what modern fantasy it should evolve to accomodate, with an eye towards accomodating the fantasy that new players are likely to know.

You see, the Elric/Conan/Tolkien trifecta that everyone references on ENWorld is, to a certain extent, "that stuff my Dad used to read" to people under the age of 30. Younger readers still read fantasy- probably in increased amounts, as far as I can tell. But they don't read the same authors. And if D&D is to welcome in newer players, arguably it should, at least to an extent, involve fantasy tropes familiar to them.

So maybe less Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, and more Tarma and Kethry.

[Imaro]

Putting aside my personal likes or dislikes and thinking mainstream-popular -fantasy as of right now my list, in no particular order would probably look like this...

1. A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. Martin
2. Final Fantasy...or just JRPG's period
3. LotR movies
4. Avatar the Last Airbender
5. World of Warcraft

Of course except for WoW I think Exalted can pretty much cover all of these...and even some like old school Sword & Sorcery...

[Hereticus]

Originally Posted by Cadfan

So maybe less Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, and more Tarma and Kethry.

I am curious... not being a fiction reader, can you elaborate on this?

It seems that there are strong influences on you character building and role play style, how has the above been a contributor?

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by Cadfan

That's fine.

What he's saying is that in his opinion its ok, even good, if D&D evolves to accomodate modern fantasy. And then he's asking what modern fantasy it should evolve to accomodate, with an eye towards accomodating the fantasy that new players are likely to know.

You see, the Elric/Conan/Tolkien trifecta that everyone references on ENWorld is, to a certain extent, "that stuff my Dad used to read" to people under the age of 30. Younger readers still read fantasy- probably in increased amounts, as far as I can tell. But they don't read the same authors. And if D&D is to welcome in newer players, arguably it should, at least to an extent, involve fantasy tropes familiar to them.

So maybe less Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, and more Tarma and Kethry.

OK- thx for the explanation- not enough coffee and just plain ol' extra dense I guess today

Perhaps somewhat relevant to the discussion-

My son (who will be 10 this year) I hope to get interested in classics. I have made it through about a 1/3 of The Hobbit, but he's just too antsy to sit and be read to- He does love to read on his own but the Hobbit did not do it for him. He has also received a few of the fantasy "monster" books that are currently popular. He's even had a go at the Mentzer Basic set as well.

But try as I might, he's a huge Pokemon (and similar) freak as are all his friends- they for whatever reason, have not quite gravitated to any other anime or Avatar/LM or such- at least yet. They seem to gravitate towards "modern" or Playstation-esque scifi (Ratchet & Klank, e.g.) as opposed to fantasy/pulp (unlike me). I think they identify much better with someone like a "pokemon trainer" kid (can't remember the characters name) or ratchet much moreso than a Luke Skywalker, John Carter, or Frodo.

[Keefe the Thief]

Originally Posted by Cadfan

That's fine.

What he's saying is that in his opinion its ok, even good, if D&D evolves to accomodate modern fantasy. And then he's asking what modern fantasy it should evolve to accomodate, with an eye towards accomodating the fantasy that new players are likely to know.

You see, the Elric/Conan/Tolkien trifecta that everyone references on ENWorld is, to a certain extent, "that stuff my Dad used to read" to people under the age of 30. Younger readers still read fantasy- probably in increased amounts, as far as I can tell. But they don't read the same authors. And if D&D is to welcome in newer players, arguably it should, at least to an extent, involve fantasy tropes familiar to them.

So maybe less Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, and more Tarma and Kethry.

Thanks Cadfan, for elaborating on my OP. I knew it could be misunderstood.

Originally Posted by Imaro

Putting aside my personal likes or dislikes and thinking mainstream-popular -fantasy as of right now my list, in no particular order would probably look like this...

1. A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. Martin
2. Final Fantasy...or just JRPG's period
3. LotR movies
4. Avatar the Last Airbender
5. World of Warcraft

Of course except for WoW I think Exalted can pretty much cover all of these...and even some like old school Sword & Sorcery...

I thought about FF - especially FF6 and FF7 are superb examples for worldbuilding and magic&technology-mashups. And their influence on modern fantasy cannot be underestimated. However, i did not put them on the list because the games do not share a single, identifiably background, only certain traits. And lots of FF-background is pretty traditional fantasy.

Originally Posted by JeffB

OK- thx for the explanation- not enough coffee and just plain ol' extra dense I guess today

Perhaps somewhat relevant to the discussion-

My son (who will be 10 this year) I hope to get interested in classics. I have made it through about a 1/3 of The Hobbit, but he's just too antsy to sit and be read to- He does love to read on his own but the Hobbit did not do it for him. He has also received a few of the fantasy "monster" books that are currently popular. He's even had a go at the Mentzer Basic set as well.

But try as I might, he's a huge Pokemon (and similar) freak as are all his friends- they for whatever reason, have not quite gravitated to any other anime or Avatar/LM or such- at least yet. They seem to gravitate towards "modern" or Playstation-esque scifi (Ratchet & Klank, e.g.) as opposed to fantasy/pulp (unlike me). I think they identify much better with someone like a "pokemon trainer" kid (can't remember the characters name) or ratchet much moreso than a Luke Skywalker, John Carter, or Frodo.

Again, i think the mix of my 5-list is important. If you can somehow mix the rich, thought-provoking and artistic background of New Crobuzon with the protagonist-centered, youthful and merchandizing-heavy core tenets of Pokemon, you have the new killer ip in your hands.

[Fallen Seraph]

Originally Posted by Imaro

1. A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. Martin

I was pondering whether or not to include that. Is it still growing beyond its current fan base (which is large) but its major impact I think occurred a few years ago. Though the HBO series could respark that impact.

[Hereticus]

Originally Posted by Keefe the Thief

Again, i think the mix of my 5-list is important. If you can somehow mix the rich, thought-provoking and artistic background of New Crobuzon with the protagonist-centered, youthful and merchandizing-heavy core tenets of Pokemon, you have the new killer ip in your hands.

Miért van ez fontos?

[Fifth Element]

Originally Posted by Imaro

Emphasis mine: He outright states this list isn't suppose to be an "I like list" but an objective list of the media D&D should reflect so that it is easier for new players to relate to. If not Keefe could you clarify before I answer the question...

Fair enough. Though I do agree with the OP's point as elaborated.

[Imaro]

Originally Posted by Fallen Seraph

I was pondering whether or not to include that. Is it still growing beyond its current fan base (which is large) but its major impact I think occurred a few years ago. Though the HBO series could respark that impact.

And this sir is the biggest problem I see with trying to structure a product that runs for almost 10 years on what's "hot" while you're developing it or even when it's released... fads come and go pretty quickly over the span of 10+ years... and you don't know whether something will become a classic or just another stepping stone towards the next greatest and latest.

I think a better approach is to create a D&D brand that means something and defines itself, not necessarily mimicking anything specific but being familiar enough in it's presentation of D&D "fantasy" as a whole not to put people off (I think White Wolf does a good job of this with their WoD setting...they cover the traditional baseline in their genre of horror with the base supernatural types books... but also provide for the more specific tastes their players may have through toolbox splats). IMO, right now D&D is somewhere in limbo... trying to stay both generic and define itself, without actually doing either.

[Cadfan]

Originally Posted by Imaro

And this sir is the biggest problem I see with trying to structure a product that runs for almost 10 years on what's "hot" while you're developing it or even when it's released... fads come and go pretty quickly over the span of 10+ years... and you don't know whether something will become a classic or just another stepping stone towards the next greatest and latest.

I disagree. While specific books might come and go, the underlying trends do not. And a lot of these trends are... lets call it "mergable" with D&D style fantasy. That is, they can't be imported wholesale, but aspects of them can be merged with existing tropes.

Lets take out specific books and just talk genres:

1. New Weird
2. Steampunk
3. Romantic Fantasy
4. What can only roughly be termed "asian influenced."
5. Modern Dark
6. Maybe Modern Contemporary Goth?
7. Young adult
8. Urban Fantasy

So maybe China Mieville, Jay Lake, Mercedes Lackey, Miyazaki, Joe Abercrombie, Stephanie Meyer, J K Rowling, and Jim Butcher will turn out to be passing fads.* But even if that's so, they're just single examples from whole genres that I feel pretty safe in concluding will exist long after they're gone.

*I am very certain that some of the alleged classical greats are actually much less read than are Mercedes Lackey and Jim Butcher. I'd give Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser a 50 year head start and still expect them to lose a popularity contest versus Valdemar, presuming that the sample group was "people who read fantasy novels" instead of "males over the age of 30 who read fantasy novels."